Will HitFilm have annual updates?

Idrankwhat Posts: 131
edited November 2015 in General

Curious if new versions will be released annually in the future?  

Will HF3 still have tutorials made for it into the future by fxhome?

I have HF3 Pro and I think that I am going to wait on updating until version 5 if this is an annual thing.   Can I ask also why development of previous versions do not get any updates once the new release is out?

I think it is a waste to only support your products for one year.  There should be notice to customers that once the new versions comes out your done updating the version they just purchased which as of now is annually.  

A little irritated about this, that current and past customers unless they update to the newest version your dropped flat for updates which only is good for one year or less. 

I get the reasons but as a customer I am irritated that the updates  only happen for a short period of time then we're dropped flat unless we update.  

This is one of the reasons I do like the subscription models of other companies so that as an option I can get on going support and updates without being out of luck especially with short turn around times on new full version releases. It is more economical with an optional subscription model.

 Please continue to support 3 Pro..  (sniffle)



  • Pete
    Pete Posts: 38
    edited November 2015

    Subscription models don't necessarily offer any better value.  Consider CC from Abobe,  cheapest of which is £10.00/month with VAT. That's £120/year, which is £10 less than the optional upgrade price of HF. That's assuming FXHome could actually make it for £10.00/month, AE which is a fairer comparison is £17.00/month, which is £204/year.

    A subscription model also doesn't allow for upgrades every other year, which HF does allow. So if you choose to upgrade every other year, you'll be paying £70/year, give or take.

    I've been through many of the tutorials, and sure there are tutorials geared for the newer products but there are also many for the express version, which has fewer features than your pro version. I'm sure we'll see many  more tutorials for express, which would equally apply for HF3 pro. 

    Also, they usually mention in the tutorials when they use specific features from a specific version, you could most likely get through the bulk of any HF4 tutorials and simply skip any HF4 specific content. This is especially true for features that have received updates under the covers - the feature use remains the same, but the result is improved. 


  • I don't have the same view point on that as you do. I think subscription models are great as long as continued development and updates occur. I am in the United States so I don't pay VAT.  The point of subscription is to receive updates and continued development on the vested products one has chosen to use.  

    My preference is that when I purchase a software that it be maintained forever more, updated and new features added and not cut it into sections and only allow updates for the current model.   Don't want to do it for free?  Offer a subscription via multi-pay options.. monthly, 3 months, 6 months, annually sums.  I would personally gladly pay FXHome an ongoing monthly fee to forever receive updates and new features.

    Just because Adobe choses to kill the product(s) once a subscription is canceled doesn't mean anyone else has to follow that same policy. 

    For me, ideally have one product called HitFilm Pro when new features are added still do the same promo's etc.. but instead of multiple versions of the software that have an end date have one that never ends and just keeps going and going like the energizer bunny...    Right now it is sort of being on a roller coaster that only goes half way and leaves you stranded somewhere on the rails...    Makes me frustrated.

    Not everyone agrees or sees it the way I do with software but the idea behind Microsoft's Windows 10 update policy where they just focus on one product and forever build onto it is appealing to me as a consumer.  Do away with versions and just develop allowing everyone that uses it to get the updates...   I like that a lot.      I am just saying I like THAT aspect of what MS has recently done.. lot's I don't like but in this example..  I like that part.

  • Triem23
    Triem23 Posts: 20,288 Power User
    edited November 2015

    It should be noted that the "ransomware" Adobe Policy seems to have been followed by everyone else who went subscription. Namely, stop your subscription, your software stops working, and kiss your work goodbye. 

    That said, it is common practice for all non-subscription software to drop support for previous versions once a new version is released. In fact, Adobe used to be notorious for that--for example, Camera RAW for CS6 doesn't have any of the new camera drivers in Camera RAW CC--although opening the "About" reveals the Camera RAW in CC is the same version number as CS6.

    Bear in mind, very few people rent ONE Adobe program. Most people just spring for the entire package at $800/year.

    And, of course with Adobe penetration by FX houses and film studios, Adobe has much of their client base by the short and curlies. Adobe knows this. 

    Tutorials... Again, FxHome is pretty good about mentioning version specific features, but guess what? Pretty much every single Hitfilm tutorial from v1 to v4 still applies to 4, and most of the v3 tutorials apply to v2! 

    Free updates forever? Not gonna happen. By that logic, VideoLab is still being updated 10 years later. FxHome is still a small, 20 person company. With Hitfilm Express they've probably given away tens of thousands of free software packages. There has to be a revenue stream somewhere, and using Express as a guide we can deduce Imagineer gets $50/copy for Mocha. It's a reasonable assumption Boris gets the same for BCC. Another $10 in codec licensing, and, suddenly, FxHome gets $60 of the upgrade fee--a very fair price. Even with an annual update, the update fee is about 50 cents a day. This is cheap, At that update rate, FxHome needs to sell 20,000 upgrade licenses a year to make payroll... Now add in office space, utilities, Internet, dev and test machines, etc... Hopefully for FxHome they continue to pick up new users, but their price point is very good in the industry 

    Hitfilm 4 isn't a minor update. Understand the new physical shader and value graph features represent rewrites of core code! This isn't just tossing in a lightsab--sword effect that is basically a minor tweak of the lightning generator! 

    So, yeah, free updates forever would be nice, but it's not happening. 

  • davide445
    davide445 Posts: 306 Just Starting Out
    edited November 2015

    Just to put in a different perspective: I'm looking to use also Cinema 4d with HF. The Visualize version (motion graphics focused, not the most complete) cost €1250 one time +€280 MSA contract every year.  No free updates for previous versions.

    HF cost/features ratio is good right now, as in every market they need to care about their customers given value, if customer base become unsatisfied, options will emerge and in fact some are freely available.

  • Palacono
    Palacono Posts: 3,414 Enthusiast

    The only problem with their "Look, new shiny things! Upgrade time!" model is: I've just checked several of the bugs I found and reported in HF3P and they're still there in HF4P, so not much incentive for me to upgrade.

    Text: Still diabolically noisy when it moves. I've had to resort to printing text on a large texture, scaling it down it and adding some blur instead of using the Text Effect.

    Scopes: Still AWOL.

  • @Idrankwhat

    If you buy a car which has an FM only radio and the following year's model has DAB as well, do you expect the car manufacturer to upgrade your radio? Of course not! When I bought HFP2 I bought it for the features it had then. I didn't expect any support other than making sure things work as advertised. Ditto when I upgraded to HFP3. I bought it for the features it had then. But wait. FXHome DID give me a free additional "DAB radio" after I'd bought it. And they gave me several other features too. Free. As goodwill. That was a bonus.

    The problem with the subscription model is that once the client base has moved to that model and the market is saturated, there is very little incentive to add features (especially in the case of ransomware)


    The exception I would make to the above is when one is talking about bug fixes. I would feel peeved if I bug a product and it didn't work as advertised and then they abandoned any attempt to fix when a new version came out (although we do tend to live with that from virtually all software manufacturers).

    On the other hand are you sure your Text problem is a bug - perhaps it's just not very well implemented and it works as well as it is deigned to as far as FXHome are concerned.

  • Palacono
    Palacono Posts: 3,414 Enthusiast

    I'm sure Hitfilm think it is fine for static text, just sucks if it moves or scales; something I often want to do when attaching it to a tracked point.

    Also the 'fancier' the font, the worse it is. There is  a good reason most of the demos use Arial Black: it's big, chunky and smooth, so hides most of the problems.

  • StormyKnight
    StormyKnight Posts: 2,618 Ambassador
    edited November 2015

    I purchased AE CS5 ($1,000) a few years back because people were telling me that I could do this effect or that effect with the program. Evidently they were unfamiliar with how AE works for most of the tutorials I sought how to do something specific required a $250 plug-in. Three effects would have cost me $1,750 to do with the core program cost included. I don't have or make enough money to stick with AE as a subscription and while my CS5 still works (as it was out before they moved to the subscription format) I don't get any updates unless I subscribe. Guess what that program is doing for me now? Nothing. It's installed on my computer as a 'just in case I need it' but as HF develops I've found I don't need AE at all. I use Photoshop far more than I do AE and because it's CS5 version, I don't get any updates for PS either. So at this point I would never consider upgrading to a CS6 subscription. Adobe left me, I didn't leave them. 

    FXhome's stated goal is to bring affordable FX compositing to independent film makers. HitFilm is a real contender today because they offer more for your money and offer new effects for free with several updates a year. Even with the upgrades, to date, I've only spent a little more (about $80) than CS5 initially cost without any plug-ins and the learning curve for HF, for me anyway, is far easier than AE.

    So in terms of value, dollars to capability, HF is far more desirable for someone like me who doesn't have a lot of disposable income. Plus, I don't have to worry whether I'll be able to finish a project (or have a project delayed) because I couldn't afford a monthly subscription should something like a car or home repair eat up any extra money I have set aside. I can put that money towards 3D models, pre-keyed effects or props that I'll need for a project.

    Palacono - I do a lot of text stuff for a local live theater and I haven't had any issues with using text/fonts. Check out my VFX thread or youtube channel and you'll see different fonts I've used that look just fine. I've never had to blur any to make them look better so I'm not sure what it is with which you're having a problem.


  • Palacono
    Palacono Posts: 3,414 Enthusiast

    BTW,  @StormyKnight I didn't get a notification that you'd 'tagged' me in your reply, because there is no 'Reply to Person' option in this forum; you have to right-click and 'Copy Link location' on someone's name, then 'insert link' in your reply, then paste that link in the top field, then edit the displayed text below it to have @ followed by their name rather than the whole link again; then they get 'tagged'. I just happened to pop back and saw you'd attempted to reply to me directly, but all you did was insert a link to my profile; which did nothing much.

    This should tell you everything you need to know about what is considered acceptable usability by (someone in ) the Hitfilm team. The forum software is not fit for purpose. It seems to have been designed for a single person's blog, and is being pushed to do things it's not capable of.

    I looked at your channel and you've got some pretty random stuff there, but didn't see much use of text as I'm using it. Static titles or lyrics to Putin singing about the Ukraine aren't an issue. I think putting it on a large plane and manipulating that works better than using it directly attached to a moving point, which is the workaround I've been doing with externally created text on textures anyway. 

    You want to see what I'm talking about? Place some medium sized text in a corner of the screen, and over a few seconds have it move across the screen at an angle and get a little larger or smaller, just as if it was tracking an object in a scene. Or actually track a pair of points with a moving camera shot and select scale and rotation when you transform a point that you parent to the text. Result: distracting, aliasing and messy.

    Anyway, I'll knock up some examples of the text performance at some point, although you'll see I mentioned it previously >here< in conjunction with Extrude as not displaying the same shape as the text; and that's not even moving. It does however work better with textures with text on them, which is...bonkers.

    But, essentially: if it's not shiny, it ain't getting fixed.

  • Aladdin4d
    Aladdin4d Posts: 2,466 Enthusiast
    edited November 2015

    @Palacono - You don't have to go through all that just to tag somebody all you need to do is type "@ followed by the forum member's name Palacono" to get a tag @Palacono which isn't just acceptable usability but also a fairly common practice.

    It seems you have issues with how HitFilm handles text especially when extrusion is involved. In response FXHOME cuts a deal with Boris FX to include an entirely different industry accepted 3D text engine (that also gives you a lot more capabilities than just that), a decision that seems to have been made specifically for you and you're still complaining about what exactly?


  • Palacono
    Palacono Posts: 3,414 Enthusiast
    edited November 2015

    OK, @Aladdin4d, did that work? (Edit: Oh, it did. Cool)

    I had tried the '@'name method in the past , as it seems pretty obvious, but it never seemed to work reliably and the name would show randomly as enlarged, normal or occasionally: a link, hence my doing it the 'hard way', which is at least consistent.

    Oh, I'm not complaining about the free BCC plugin pack. Docs are a bit sketchy and its missing the BCC FX Browser to make more presets, but it's a big improvement and I'm sure I'll get used to it and can live without the future 3D integration promised for HF4P. If there was some other compelling reason to upgrade, I might consider it (like Scopes ); so I'll keep checking out future demo versions.

  • Triem23
    Triem23 Posts: 20,288 Power User
    edited November 2015

    Just an observation: One artist's compelling reason to upgrade is another artist's "dont care."

    Yeah, I want full scopes in Hitfilm, but I already have the NewBlue scopes, so... It's a workaround. That said, I do a lot with models and particles. For me the new lighting/shading model, bump and normal maps support, soft particle interaction and, especially, the value graph are compelling reasons to upgrade. The new model options allow renders that are impossible to get in Ultimate 2 or Pro 3, and the value graph allows a subtlety of acceleration impossible to animate in Ultimate 2 and Pro 3.

    Once the Boris is patched to work with Hitfilm's camera and lights, it will be easy to build title and text effects, integrated with Hitfilm's 3D space that are impossible in Ultimate 2 and Pro 3. 

    So I have my compelling reasons to upgrade. 

  • @Triem23

    I agree that one person reason to upgrade is another person's reason to see the updates as not for them. I like Hitfilm and truly want to make it the all in one solution for my company. I agree that some of the updates are good like better rendering although it doesn't appear to be a cycles or Lux realistic type renderer though : ), but some are just attention grabbers like boris text. I have a full version of BCC effects in Vegas and I rarely use them or pro titler by newblue.

    I am looking for more core basic updates that increase speed and productivity. Examples are folders for the editor and compositor timeline, team up with red giant for plural eyes add on for vocal sync or create it, multicamera edit, J and L cuts by allowing users to unlink video and audio on the time line and tell compelling stories, video scopes for real color grading, better audio capabilities (which is 50% of the story), etc.

    We want to do more than make exciting bumpers and intros and Hitfilm can take us there. So that no one will think I am being negative, I restate I want Hitfilm to be my all in one go to and it can. I am very tired of Vegas, don't like Adobe, or FCX. We need a few solid tools to make it professionally ready for client based work. Hitfilm, thanks for making the program. 

  • Triem23
    Triem23 Posts: 20,288 Power User

    You actually can unlink audio and video in Hitfilm. I am out of town shooting so I can't check now, but I think each edit datablock has a "Chain" icon that controls locking. 

  • NormanPCN
    NormanPCN Posts: 4,372 Expert

    Yes, unlink is there but you have to unlink your two separate events, then do your roll edit for the L/J cut, and then relink the two events again. That works, but it is very clunky and wastes a bit of time by doing the app mouse move/click overhead thing.

    I have a couple of ideas here and one of these decades I should post my wishlist.

    For super easy and fast L/J cuts how about an Alt key modifier for the roll edit tool. The Alt modifier would temp ignore event group/linking.

    Another item is a button like "snap", but its function would be to have event group/linking be ignored (on/off). There can be times you want to linking off for a short period to do a few tasks and then re-enable it.

  • @NormanPCN The modifier key is a great idea and should be an easy implementation. I also like the snap button. It reminds me of the ignore grouping button on the tool bar in Vegas. 

  • Porq
    Porq Posts: 46 Just Starting Out

    As someone who abandoned Adobe following the "ransomware" model Triem referred to, I would personally do the same if Hitfilm pursued that type of subscription model. The only subscription plan I've seen which I'd feel comfortable with would be along the lines of the Digital Audio Workstation software Cakewalk Sonar.  

    I was planning to ditch Sonar last year when they switched to a subscription model, but they were the first company I've seen to offer an intelligent subscription plan.  You either pay for a 12 month subscription all at once OR pay monthly for 12 months and as long as you've made all 12 payments... you get to keep using the software with whatever features it had when your 1-yr term expires.  If you go the monthly route and DO NOT complete your 12 month contract then the software does drop back into demo mode.  Pay your 12 months all at once or complete 12 monthly payments and the software runs in perpetuity with all features and upgrades which were enabled up to the last date of your paid annual subscription period even if you choose not to subscribe further.

    It's not ideal, and I still MUCH prefer a simple  annual upgrade, but should there ever be a desire at FXhome to pursue subscriptions... please don't go down the ransomware path.  Locking up an artist's tools to make them pay for upgrades they don't need or desire is extortion, not smart business.  Like a lot of others on here, I came TO Hitfilm FROM Adobe because although pay it or lose it subscriptions are a great revenue source for companies, I view them as equivalent to digital drug dealers peddling wares to artists... try this out cheap... then keep coming back buying regular hits FOREVER or you'll never get that creative high again!

  • Triem23
    Triem23 Posts: 20,288 Power User

    Actually, if Adobe's model was like Sonar's there would be less complaining. Ok, I gave up my subscription, I lost future upgrade rights. I can live with that, at least I can open my own projects. As it is, right now Abode CC DRM's your work. This is why I stopped as CS6. Eventually I will transition to GIMP. 

    Hitfilm doesn't yet have After Effects' raw power, but, it's the best alternative for layer-based compositing (and, with particles and models built-in and a unified 3D space, a lot of shots are far easier to set up in Hitfilm. It has it's flaws, but none of them are truly fatal. 

  • IamJoshuaDavies
    IamJoshuaDavies Staff Posts: 363 Staff

    Hey all,

    There is no perfect answer to the problem here - but that doesn't mean we're not trying to work it out. HitFilm users want to have updates often, big new features too and definitely not be locked in to a subscription just to use the software.

    As a pretty small company the best compromise we can come to is to make new versions of the software yearly (killer feature releases) and then 4+ updates during the product life for new features and fixes (we did 8 to HitFilm 3 Pro). All this while not locking people in to a subscription model to use the software. While we wish we could just give the software away for free unless Google comes along as buys us we can't do that. Instead we try to make the software as affordable as possible while guaranteeing its continued development for years to come.

    It is worth pointing out that even with subscription software when a new version comes out (as it does yearly with the Creative Cloud for instance) you're forced to move to that version (with any issues it might have - GRR PhotoShop bugs on my Mac!) and the previous version is no longer developed. It is really hard for most companies, even large ones, to try and develop multiple codebases at the same time. We actually already do that as while one version is out (HitFilm 3 Pro) we are creating the next (HitFilm 4 Pro) - to add another legacy codebase would definitely slow our development and increase our costs significantly. Our best compromise here is to allow you to keep using your old version when you upgrade to the new version just in case there are projects which work better that way - but we have to move the software forward and on to new heights as nothing stands still in the industry.

    We will be updating annually from now on as in the vast majority that has been the feedback we've been given. We've had a very strong anti-subscription message from most of our user base so we won't be doing this anytime soon.

    It is worth noting that when you buy HitFilm you get 12 months of Technical Support even if a new version comes out. :)

  • Ady
    Ady Posts: 1,531 Enthusiast

    Palacono - Sorry, only just seen this thread.  We certainly don't ignore any bug reports from our users & I can only apologise if an issue that has been affecting you has gone unnoticed.

    I'm happy to look at any issues you have with text & get them logged to a developer. The thread that you linked to has a pretty comprehensive reply from Simon about the use of 3D Extrusion on text. Was that the only issue you were having?

  • TonyCee
    TonyCee Posts: 760 Ambassador
    edited November 2015

    JoshDaviesCEO I have moved away all together from AE, the changes made in cc 2015 are beyond annoying, there's no ram preview any more so I have to wait for the damned thing to cache individual frames, then there's the render cue, things that took 10 minutes to render now take hours! both me and neon visual have this issue, 

    On another note on the developers behalf, what's been achieved is incredible for the size of the company and they have done the company proud, the same goes to all the staff keeping the company afloat.

    the way you deal with the marketing holds far better choice to a whole range of users needs and I see no reason for it to change to a subscription model.

    since testing I've made sure to show off the new release, It's not far from finished.. but I hope it's a blinder.

  • chibi
    chibi Posts: 255 Enthusiast

    No to subscription where software just suddenly stops working. :)

    Actually if hf is updated annually then its like subscription isn't it? Even the cost looks similar except hf still works without subsciption. That's the main difference.

    Old software versions are dropped in subscriptions, too. They don't get supported anymore.  Everyone is rolled into the new versions automatically. Like I don't get updates anymore for Modo 801  since Modo 901 is out.

    A year of support might be too short. Maybe 18 months is a good compromise.

  • Palacono
    Palacono Posts: 3,414 Enthusiast

    @Ady, Simon's reply explained some of the limitations, but that didn't quite match up to my experience (or explain why text and extrusion clearly looked different on the same letter) and a possible solution involved creating a comp of an enormous version of what I wanted, then scaling it down, as Extrusion is only applied to the screen size of the text, so making it large and scaling the layer with zoom is pointless. That's not what anyone does in any of the tutorials and sounded like a bodge to get around the different order things were processed. Plus: look again at the images I posted and you'll see there is a difference between the way the text and the extrusion are effected by aliasing anyway, so even in a large comp they still wouldn't look the same. Nothing's changed in HF4P.

    So I carried on doing what I do instead: which is to draw text on a large plane texture and use that. A lot simpler, but makes the text feature redundant.

    The biggest issue with the noisy text (and textures) is actually that it is rendered WRT its position on the screen, rather than the text's position in its own layer, which means every time it is rendered: it looks different; even if it barely moves. The text itself can be blurred a bit to deal with that to some extent (I also blur my 'text'ured plane), but the Extrusion isn't affected in the same way. See the 3rd image in the >thread<. That's also the case for other moving textures; the Quad Warp of something moving across the screen highlights it too.

    Here are some images of some large text (zoomed in for clarity) that was moving quite slowly across the screen. The two images are one frame apart in the video and if you overlay them you'll see how much the text changes. If you can't see it immediately: just look at the pointy bit on the top of the T stroke, or any of the edges. Multi/Supersamplng was turned off to make it more obvious, but even with them on it's still very visible. I can't really use that.


    The HF3P colour clipping issues in 16 bit mode are still there in HF4P, as reported >here< and >here<.

    Quad Warp still jiggles the texture about strangely, even though the points barely move, or don't at all, as reported >here<. I think that's again to do with how the texture is rendered WRT its screen position. If the points move across the screen, the texture is rendered differently, even if the corners move in perfect harmony and in the same plane. Although I also think there are some positional rounding errors occurring in Quad Warp too, as the points aren't actually moving as much as it makes them look, as you can see the text next to it, which is also tracked to similar points, looks perfectly stable.

    Point Tracking is still slow; opening another window over HF still speeds it up, as detailed >here<.

    Did you get to the bottom of >this<? Sorry I didn't upload a project file, but multiple people were reporting the timeline as having an effect, so I thought you could probably manage.

    Handling of MP4 files is still the slowest of any editor I have, and that even includes Windows Movie Maker. Responses to other people mentioning this show it's never going to change.

    There still aren't a lot of Export types and it's not interested in using any AVI codecs I've got installed, such as Cineform.

    Those issues still present in the HF4P demo were enough to make me stop looking further.

    Shinier stuff isn't really what I'm interested in. Accurate tracking, clean text and texture rendering, non-clipped 16 bit mode, more export options and scopes are what I'd like, but I realise I'm somewhat of an edge case in your target market.

    That's all fine, but that's also why I'm staying with HF3P.

  • Dewr
    Dewr Posts: 146 Enthusiast

    instead of Photoshop, I use Affinity Photo for the Mac, excellent software.

  • IamJoshuaDavies
    IamJoshuaDavies Staff Posts: 363 Staff

    @Palacono we'll look at all those issues again but I can tell you already that the clipping of colour in GoPro footage will be fixed in Update 1. :)

  • Dewr
    Dewr Posts: 146 Enthusiast

    Josh, I love the new incarnation, it is great

  • Palacono
    Palacono Posts: 3,414 Enthusiast
    edited November 2015

    @JoshDaviesCEO OK, well I'll look forward to it, although I didn't realise it was specifically GoPro (Protune) footage that caused the colour clipping problem; that's pretty weird if true.

  • NormanPCN
    NormanPCN Posts: 4,372 Expert

    @Palacono I know that Hitfilm clips AVC video in MP4 files on import. What it is doing is a studio/video levels to computer levels operation. GoPro AVC video, just like most DSLR video is actually encoded as full range data, and not video levels, so Hitfilm was changing the levels at import.

    The AVC files are tagged with an AVC VUI full range flag but Hitfilm ignores that in MP4. DSLR video is also typically full range, with flag, but DSLRs commonly output to a Quicktime MOV file. Quicktime on import will respect the VUI flag and the levels do not get clipped.

    Maybe this is what @JoshDaviesCEO is referencing. Then again, maybe not.

  • Palacono
    Palacono Posts: 3,414 Enthusiast
    edited November 2015

    @NormanPCN OK, well that's interesting and annoying. I have enough problems with SMS and its levels adjustment, and then again with YouTube, that I'm always struggling with them and why SCOPES would be useful.

    Just checking if you can post animated gifs to highlight my text observation about the way text is rendered when it barely moves.

    Edit: Oh, you can.

  • Pencilandinc
    Pencilandinc Posts: 140 Enthusiast

    Just to put my $0.02 in here, an excellent but underrated software to replace Photoshop is called PhotoLine. The interface is not the greatest but all the power of Photoshop is there, plus more. It is also cross-platform AND works in WINE with no hiccup and it retails for 59 euros. Google "Photoline" and download the demo.