What kind of camera move is this?

CalebKCalebK Website User Posts: 435
At 0:49 their is this weird effect where everything flattens, and comes close together.  What is this called? Can hit film do it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLbxHHvN9mc
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Comments

  • MandalorianMandalorian Website User Posts: 79
    It's a dolly zoom.  In this case, it looks like the camera is dollying out and the lens is zooming in.  Peter Jackson seems to love it.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_zoom
  • AxelWilkinsonAxelWilkinson Staff Administrator, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 5,242 Staff
    Yeah, its chiefly something that is done in-camera, as Mandalorian mentions, but you could theoretically replicate it pretty easily using the virtual camera in HitFilm, if you had a 3D scene set up.  Trying to replicate the effect on a single layer of footage that has already been shot would be a bit trickier.
    It was first made popular in the Hitchcock film Vertigo, and is thus often referred to as a Vertigo shot as well.
  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,262 Ambassador
    To clarify a bit more, there are two ways to "dolly-zoom." You can either pull the camera back while zooming in, which will "flatten" the space, or you can push the camera in while zooming out, which "widens" the space.
    Pulling off a dolly zoom really does require a slider, a full dolly, or a secure tripod on a wheelchair or other "fake-dolly." It's one of those shots that never looks good if shot handheld. What you're trying to do is focus on a specific person/object, keeping that the same size in-frame so the world "stretches" around it.
  • SimonKJonesSimonKJones Moderator Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 4,450 Enthusiast
    For another key example, see Jaws.
  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,262 Ambassador
    [quote name="Simon K Jones" post="44459" timestamp="1405588008"]For another key example, see Jaws.[/quote]

    Or, you know, Season Three, Episode 10, "Severed Dreams" from the TV show "Babylon 5." (Simon, I know you always appreciate a B5 reference.)
  • HarHar Website User Posts: 400 Just Starting Out
    For some reason the example that always sticks in my head is the cheezy way Duran Duran used it in their old "Is There Something I Should Know" video at 3:13....   ;) 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M0hogZyRyU
  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,262 Ambassador
    That is actually a beautifully designed video - - horrible '80's hair, not withstanding. But the tints, splits and freezes were hard to do in the mid 80's.Not too many DVE' s besides Quantel. It's well shot and well cut. I love the red ball in the blue forest. And, yes, a beautifully bad dolly-zoom.
  • CalebKCalebK Website User Posts: 435
    Ok, i guess i am going to put another hobbit question here.  It looks like a green screen nightmare.  So i was watching the directors speech, and i noticed how much of a nightmare the gollum scene must have been.  So they were frequently watering the rocks, and they also had pools of water furthermore their was green screen everywhere.  What equipment and technology do they have that allows them to clean it all up so nicely?
    I also noticed  in one of the hobbit on scenes they had green crops with green behind it, how in the world could a computer do that small of a difference?
  • MandalorianMandalorian Website User Posts: 79
    Any chance you could point us to some videos or screenshots to fully understand what you're referencing?
    I know Weta uses Nuke, and there are lots of awesome ways to key greenscreen and fix any spill or edge artifacts.  It's an art, but there are many, many options open with a nodal approach, not to mention Weta has their own proprietary tools as well.
    As for the crops, I'd really like to see a screenshot.  I have thoughts on how they may have accomplished it, but seeing it would help tremendously to narrow it down.
  • JoeyVFXJoeyVFX Website User Posts: 38
    Isn't the technical term called the push pull?
  • AxelWilkinsonAxelWilkinson Staff Administrator, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 5,242 Staff
    Push/pull is another name for it, but the technical name, I believe, is a dolly zoom.  It has lots of other names as well, including Hitchcock zoom, Vertigo shot, Jaws zoom, trombone shot, push/pull and bunch of others - the link Mandalorian gave has a pretty comprehensive list.  But technically, it combines a camera lens zoom with a camera dolly, so dolly zoom is the technically correct name.  Feel free to use whichever name you prefer though, or whichever one ensures your camera crew knows what you have in mind.
  • SimonKJonesSimonKJones Moderator Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 4,450 Enthusiast
    Caleb - on a film like The Hobbit you'll have a team of rotoscopers whose job it is to simply mask things out by hand. Frame by frame. There's a LOT of that in major movies.
  • CalebKCalebK Website User Posts: 435
    I would hate being the rotoscoper
  • CalebKCalebK Website User Posts: 435
    I really wonder why they didn't use blue screen on the hobbiton scene it's allll green
  • MandalorianMandalorian Website User Posts: 79
    Rotoscoping is arduous and mostly repetitive, but it's a very interesting process and there are some very cool ways to go about it.  There's everything from hand rotoing on a frame-by-frame basis to rotoing with tracks in 3d.  Trying out new roto techniques is a blast imo.  Then again, that's 80% of what I do for work, so it might just be me.
    A bluescreen may have worked, but there may have been other reasons besides the crops that they chose green over blue.  Who knows.  Either way, they roto'd all the plants for King Kong, so I wonder how this compares.
  • MasterWolfMasterWolf Website User Posts: 369
    I always prefer the term Trombone shot, that is what I first learned it was called and its stuck with me. One of my favorite examples was I believe kind of accidental. In the movie Vanishing Point the camera operator is trying to keep Kowalski's Charger in center frame and in focus while the camera truck is trying to keep up with the Charger at the same time. The effect produces some really cool trombone shot effects.
  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,262 Ambassador
    I would hate being the rotoscoper
    I really wonder why they didn't use blue screen on the hobbiton scene it's allll green

    Caleb, there's a funny story on the 20th Anniversary DVD of the original "Tron." Actor Dan Shor ("RAM") tells of walking down the street and being stopped by a man (paraphrased)... "Are you Dan Shor?" "Yes. Yes, I am." "I hate your eyes. That's all I've been doing for a year. Your eyes."
    Yup. Dan Shor was talking to his roto artist.
    It should be noted that, even with green foliage on a greenscreen, you can often still extract a key. Keying can get pretty precise. Even Kermit the Frog was greenscreened for "Muppets Most Wanted."
    That said, Chroma Key and semi-automated processes aside, sometimes you still just have to manually roto. Heck, I'll bet that there are roto artists standing by at ILM right now, ready to do lightsabers for EP VII. Despite every aspiring artist who has the idea of motion-tracking a stick, you still have to roto lightsabers.....

     

    Rotoscoping is arduous and mostly repetitive, but it's a very interesting process and there are some very cool ways to go about it.  There's everything from hand rotoing on a frame-by-frame basis to rotoing with tracks in 3d.  Trying out new roto techniques is a blast imo.  Then again, that's 80% of what I do for work, so it might just be me.
    A bluescreen may have worked, but there may have been other reasons besides the crops that they chose green over blue.  Who knows.  Either way, they roto'd all the plants for King Kong, so I wonder how this compares.

     

    Well, "Hobbit" was being shot digitally, and, of course, digital imagers, like our eyes, are twice as sensitive to green wavelengths as to blue. Blue tended to be used on film because the photochem processes for film were more sensitive to blue, than green.
    Hey, who do you roto for, and you ever use mocha pro for your roto work? Yeah, I'm hintng around for any tips you might have. ;-)
     

    I always prefer the term Trombone shot, that is what I first learned it was called and its stuck with me. One of my favorite examples was I believe kind of accidental. In the movie Vanishing Point the camera operator is trying to keep Kowalski's Charger in center frame and in focus while the camera truck is trying to keep up with the Charger at the same time. The effect produces some really cool trombone shot effects.


    Hah! I have never heard the term "Trombone shot" before! I kind of like that!

  • MandalorianMandalorian Website User Posts: 79
    Heck, I'll bet that there are roto artists standing by at ILM right now, ready to do lightsabers for EP VII. Despite every aspiring artist who has the idea of motion-tracking a stick, you still have to roto lightsabers.....

     

    That would be a dream come true.  For me at least.  I'd give nearly anything to roto lightsabers on a real Star Wars movie.

     

    Hey, who do you roto for, and you ever use mocha pro for your roto work? Yeah, I'm hintng around for any tips you might have. ;-)


    I work for the LDS Motion Picture Studio.  I've been using mocha pro for roto basically since I started working here about 1 1/2 years ago.  It's awesome.  As far as tips, tracking is your best friend.  Learn the planar tracker as best you can, and use it in instances where you think it might not even work.  It can surprise you at times.  I used it to track the edge of a face a while ago and it worked like a charm, distortion and all.
    Set keyframes for your shapes at the movement extremes.  I used to set keyframes every 10th frame, then set more in between to adjust.  It's so much easier and quicker to find the frame where the shape is the furthest off and set a keyframe there.
    Don't be afraid to break up the objects to be roto'd into many pieces.  Breaking down objects to individual parts will make it far easier to set appropriate keyframes, manage points and achieve the best end result.
    In addition, know the capabilities of all the tools available to you.  We have a lot of awesome software here, so I can take my pick for roto.  Right now, I'm doing some crazy forest roto.  Yeah, mocha didn't work for this unfortunately.  So, got to try something new.  Tracked in syntheyes to solve a 3d camera, mapped cards to the trees in 3d space, used the cards for stabilization and roto'd in nuke.  It's awesome, fast, and the tracks are much cleaner than what I was getting with mocha (the footage was really noisy and the exposure was wacky, so that threw mocha for a spin).
    Basically, use the tool that's best for the job.  And learn to use the tools available to you to their fullest potential.
    I'm just spitballing since I don't know how much you guys know, but I hope some of this was useful.

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,262 Ambassador
    edited July 2014

    I work for the LDS Motion Picture Studio.  I've been using mocha pro for roto basically since I started working here about 1 1/2 years ago.  It's awesome.  As far as tips, tracking is your best friend.  Learn the planar tracker as best you can, and use it in instances where you think it might not even work.  It can surprise you at times.  I used it to track the edge of a face a while ago and it worked like a charm, distortion and all.
    Set keyframes for your shapes at the movement extremes.  I used to set keyframes every 10th frame, then set more in between to adjust.  It's so much easier and quicker to find the frame where the shape is the furthest off and set a keyframe there.
    Don't be afraid to break up the objects to be roto'd into many pieces.  Breaking down objects to individual parts will make it far easier to set appropriate keyframes, manage points and achieve the best end result.
    In addition, know the capabilities of all the tools available to you.  We have a lot of awesome software here, so I can take my pick for roto.  Right now, I'm doing some crazy forest roto.  Yeah, mocha didn't work for this unfortunately.  So, got to try something new.  Tracked in syntheyes to solve a 3d camera, mapped cards to the trees in 3d space, used the cards for stabilization and roto'd in nuke.  It's awesome, fast, and the tracks are much cleaner than what I was getting with mocha (the footage was really noisy and the exposure was wacky, so that threw mocha for a spin).
    Basically, use the tool that's best for the job.  And learn to use the tools available to you to their fullest potential.
    I'm just spitballing since I don't know how much you guys know, but I hope some of this was useful.


    Good general tips.
    No, I getcha on using different tools for the same job. Oddly enough about the only time I've gone into AE since getting Hitfilm is to do point tracking for camera solves for shots mocha can't handle. I'm just moving (in mocha) out of camera tracking and starting to get into it's other modules. It would probably make my life easier if I were starting with nice, clean footage, but a lot of my mocha experiments have been with questionable footage--smartphones, etc. The theory is, if I can get good consistent results from my tools starting with bad footage, I'll be faster and better with good footage! (My buddy, Thomas, calls this Kung-Fu training... Learn under difficult circumstances, not best-case. Learning under near-worst-case situations REALLY forces you to get good, fast.)
    (I'm actually playing with the "Remove Module" tonight--shot 1, remove an actor's eye, replacing with unbroken skin. Shot 2--remove a moving vehicle from the foreground of a shot so I can reverse it. Both handheld, cameraphone shots)
    LDS? Yes, any material based on the Bible or Book of Mormon is going to be chock-full of VFX work. I can see a ton of set extention and BG replacement being required, and that's before getting into any "flash" required for any instance of Divine intervention. That's going to keep you busy. On the other hand, you won't spend a year rotoscoping Dan Shor's eyes by hand....

  • MandalorianMandalorian Website User Posts: 79

    Good general tips.
    No, I getcha on using different tools for the same job. Oddly enough about the only time I've gone into AE since getting Hitfilm is to do point tracking for camera solves for shots mocha can't handle. I'm just moving (in mocha) out of camera tracking and starting to get into it's other modules. It would probably make my life easier if I were starting with nice, clean footage, but a lot of my mocha experiments have been with questionable footage--smartphones, etc. The theory is, if I can get good consistent results from my tools starting with bad footage, I'll be faster and better with good footage! (My buddy, Thomas, calls this Kung-Fu training... Learn under difficult circumstances, not best-case. Learning under near-worst-case situations REALLY forces you to get good, fast.)
    (I'm actually playing with the "Remove Module" tonight--shot 1, remove an actor's eye, replacing with unbroken skin. Shot 2--remove a moving vehicle from the foreground of a shot so I can reverse it. Both handheld, cameraphone shots)
    LDS? Yes, any material based on the Bible or Book of Mormon is going to be chock-full of VFX work. I can see a ton of set extention and BG replacement being required, and that's before getting into any "flash" required for any instance of Divine intervention. That's going to keep you busy. On the other hand, you won't spend a year rotoscoping Dan Shor's eyes by hand....


    Speaking of knowing your tools, I guess I should try out Hitfilm some more.  I played around a little with the original beta, then tried some things  late last year again, but never got the hang of it.  I'm  so much more used to AE and its toolset.  The roto tools and the way they work makes more sense to my mind, and the scripting is awesome once I wrap my head around it.  But some of Hitfilms capabilities really need another look.  I just need a project to try it out on again.
    Same goes for Mocha.  With our pipeline I haven't had an opportunity to try any of the other modules.  All the replacements or removals I've done were in Nuke.  It's like you say, a trial by fire is the best way to learn.  I've felt that way my entire time working here.  You have to learn and adapt very quickly, and it can be very exhausting, but it's always rewarding.  Good luck on your testing.  Hope to see how well you fare.  :D
    It's funny you mention "flashes" for Diety.  We've done so many iterations of glows for so many different directors, we might as well just be a studio that specializes in glows.  It's nuts, and glows are a much bigger pain than you might think.  When a director is given the option of adjusting every single pixel of the glow to their liking, they will take advantage of that.
    Haha, yeah, I won't be rotoing Dan Shor's eyes, but I can't say I'd complain if I had to do that today.  Some of the stuff I've had to roto stretched me to my limits.  Then again, this is with digital tools, not the mechanical ones they had to use back when they did Tron, so I can see where that artists agony comes from.
    Some of the funnest stuff is seeing what other people can pull off and how quickly they grow.  We had an awesome artist that worked on Gravity there for a few months and he was the only one who knew Massive.  We had a big shot that needed lots of Massive agents.  He had to leave before he got it done, so he trained another artist how to run Massive sims in like a week.  While the shot is far from perfect, it was way cool to see how far the learning guy got with a quick deadline and minimal training, not to mention the scarcity of online training for that software.
    So yes, learning on the toughest shots with a tight deadline will push you past almost any border you think you're incapable of crossing.

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,262 Ambassador

    Speaking of knowing your tools, I guess I should try out Hitfilm some more.  I played around a little with the original beta, then tried some things  late last year again, but never got the hang of it.  I'm  so much more used to AE and its toolset.  The roto tools and the way they work makes more sense to my mind, and the scripting is awesome once I wrap my head around it.  But some of Hitfilms capabilities really need another look.  I just need a project to try it out on again.
    Same goes for Mocha.  With our pipeline I haven't had an opportunity to try any of the other modules.  All the replacements or removals I've done were in Nuke.  It's like you say, a trial by fire is the best way to learn.  I've felt that way my entire time working here.  You have to learn and adapt very quickly, and it can be very exhausting, but it's always rewarding.  Good luck on your testing.  Hope to see how well you fare.  :D
    It's funny you mention "flashes" for Diety.  We've done so many iterations of glows for so many different directors, we might as well just be a studio that specializes in glows.  It's nuts, and glows are a much bigger pain than you might think.  When a director is given the option of adjusting every single pixel of the glow to their liking, they will take advantage of that.
    Haha, yeah, I won't be rotoing Dan Shor's eyes, but I can't say I'd complain if I had to do that today.  Some of the stuff I've had to roto stretched me to my limits.  Then again, this is with digital tools, not the mechanical ones they had to use back when they did Tron, so I can see where that artists agony comes from.
    Some of the funnest stuff is seeing what other people can pull off and how quickly they grow.  We had an awesome artist that worked on Gravity there for a few months and he was the only one who knew Massive.  We had a big shot that needed lots of Massive agents.  He had to leave before he got it done, so he trained another artist how to run Massive sims in like a week.  While the shot is far from perfect, it was way cool to see how far the learning guy got with a quick deadline and minimal training, not to mention the scarcity of online training for that software.
    So yes, learning on the toughest shots with a tight deadline will push you past almost any border you think you're incapable of crossing.


    Oh, there's much pain in glows--for one thing, there's so many ways to do them! And they all have different look, depending of if you're using "glow filters" or "blur layers" or even a hand-roto! Personally, my favorite glow combines a solid-fill roto of my rough glow shape with Vegas Pro's "proportional blur" augmented with Vegas' built-in edge glow and layer shadow (just change the shadow color to something bright). That's my go-to for wedding titles. ;-)

  • MandalorianMandalorian Website User Posts: 79
    Oh, there's much pain in glows--for one thing, there's so many ways to do them! And they all have different look, depending of if you're using "glow filters" or "blur layers" or even a hand-roto! Personally, my favorite glow combines a solid-fill roto of my rough glow shape with Vegas Pro's "proportional blur" augmented with Vegas' built-in edge glow and layer shadow (just change the shadow color to something bright). That's my go-to for wedding titles. ;-)


    So true.  Sometimes it's just a general glow based on a keyed alpha channel, other times it's articulated rotos based on specific pieces such as robe, hair, skin.  I wish our glows were as easy as your wedding titles sometimes.  They seem to go from 20ish nodes in nuke to hundreds, plus all the roto shapes and mixed keyes.  Then there's the fun of figuring out how you want other things in the scene to interact with it.  When they pass in front, how does the glow react?  Does it glow around them, do they occlude the glow?  So many possibilities, especially when the director doesn't know up front and just wants everyone to experiment.  Then later they want a mixture of a few different glows, so everyone has to adjust their setup accordingly.  Sometimes it feels like my brain is pouring out of my head and spilling all over my keyboard.  But hey, at least my node graph has no diagonal lines between nodes (OCD for ya).  :D

  • RossTrowbridgeRossTrowbridge Website User Posts: 423 Enthusiast
    So Mandalorian,..
    I have to ask this since you work for the LDS film studios and and seem to have some 'affinity' for Mandalorians. Were you with one of the Mandalorian groups at FanX in Salt Lake City last April? If so, I was there with the Star Trek group that had the Type 15 shuttlepod right next to the Krayt Clan of the Mandalorian Mercs (and by the 1960's Batmobile). There are several members of our group that are wanting to build their own armor now. It's okay, though, we're cross-mythos! We've already got some old school Battlestar Galactica warrior uniforms kicking around and a little Babylon 5 stuff.
  • MandalorianMandalorian Website User Posts: 79
    I wish.  I've wanted to make a nice suit of Mandalorian armor for years, just haven't gotten around to building any of it, or an awesome vacuum forming machine either.  Someday right.
  • RossTrowbridgeRossTrowbridge Website User Posts: 423 Enthusiast
    I wish.  I've wanted to make a nice suit of Mandalorian armor for years, just haven't gotten around to building any of it, or an awesome vacuum forming machine either.  Someday right.

    There's ALWAYS a someday... *grin*
    Here's a link to their facebook page if you want to contact them.  They were very helpful.
    https://www.facebook.com/KraytClan
     

  • MandalorianMandalorian Website User Posts: 79
    Awesome.  That will be most helpful.  Had no idea there was even a group like that around here.  Thanks.  :D
  • AxelWilkinsonAxelWilkinson Staff Administrator, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 5,242 Staff
    Back to the original topic, here is a very informative course on the Dolly Zoom: http://filmmakeriq.com/courses/mastering-the-art-of-the-dolly-zoom/
  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,262 Ambassador
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8wFtoQbczA
    It should be noted that you can get a similar effect in post. In this short test, the camera is remaining mostly static, but the ACTOR leans closer to and farther from the camera. I stabilized this shot in Hitfilm, using a two-point tracker using the outer corner of each eyes. I did this to make it easier to apply the distortion effects I was using, and had intended to "un-stabilize" the shot after VFX.
    Then I saw how the background "stretched" around the actor in a way very similar to a dolly zoom, thought it was cool, and left it alone.
    For reference, here's a different test I did with the same shot, using Mocha Pro's "Remove" module. This shot isn't stabilized, so you can see the background is actually staying still and the actor is what's moving.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUos99OgOdY
  • garditagardita Website User Posts: 4

    I hope you do a tutorial for hitfilm type thanks

     

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,262 Ambassador

    @garditagmailcom no need to do a Hitfilm-specific tutorial for this effect. All that's being done here is the scale  and the position arebeing changed to keep the actor centered and the same size in the frame (The grid part is optional). This is very basic animation and works exactly the same way in absolutely every NLE or compositing program from Hitfilm and AE to Vegas, Premiere, FCPX, etc, etc.

    Everything you would need to know goes back to this old Hitfilm 1 tutorial.

    Or this Hitfilm 3 Express tutorial

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