The SketchUp Thread

cluelessnubecluelessnube Website User Posts: 476 Just Starting Out

My 3D life took a big leap forward this week when I came upon a free 3D modeling app that I really like.    Who knew that could happen??

SketchUp describes itself as "the simplest free 3D modeling software on the web". Sounds right to me as I watched one 5 minute video and then began immediately creating basic models. I've never met any 3D app that was close to being this accessible.

The first thing I did before diving in to SketchUp was to determine whether I could import SketchUp models in to Hitfilm. The answer is yes.

If you buy SketchUp Pro it exports in various formats that Hitfilm will accept so no problem here at all. I tested the trial version of Pro and file transfer from SketchUp to Hitfilm seemed to work perfectly.

However, SketchUp Pro is a tad pricey at $229 per year subscription, or a one time fee of $575. So some may prefer to start with the free version.

After a couple days of research what I found that the free version that worked the best for Hitfilm was SketchUp Make 2017.

https://www.sketchup.com/download/all

This is downloadable software for Windows and Mac. For 30 days it operates as a trial of SketchUp Pro, and then reverts to a feature reduced free version. This is now outdated software that will no longer be updated. It may vanish from their download page, so get it now, just in case.

SketchUp Make will only export in Collada DAE.  So what you need to do to get your model in to Hitfilm is convert that file to FBX using this converter:

https://www.autodesk.com/developer-network/platform-technologies/fbx-converter-archives

Please note, I experimented with a couple of online converters and they didn't work. This Autodesk converter does work.

If you're new to SketchUp and 3D modeling in general a good place to start is this video tutorial series.

This guy does a good job at introducing SketchUp. His video covers the online free version and not SketchUp Make, but they should be very similar.

To get a quick look at him building a simple house in SketchUp try this video:

To see models made in SketchUp try their 3D Warehouse:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/search/?hl=en

I've read that while you can create human models in SketchUp, other software like MakeHuman is probably the wiser choice for that.

Please note, I am very new to SketchUp so the above is a first impression, not expert testimony. I'm sure I've left out many features of SketchUp which I've yet to discover.

Like any software I'm sure SketchUp won't be for everyone, but if you've tried modeling in other programs like Blender and got discouraged, this could be the solution. What I hope to do is create houses, furniture and other 3D scene models in SketchUp so I'll know in advance that they will work in Hitfilm. When I get some decent scenes together I'll post a video.

 

 

Comments

  • cluelessnubecluelessnube Website User Posts: 476 Just Starting Out

     Whoops, the first video above is the third in the series, not the best place to start.  My bad.  Would have removed it but can't seem to find the edit button at the moment.   The second video is a better starting place.

    A list of the tutorials in order can be found here:  

  • Andy001zAndy001z Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,863 Ambassador

    I use SketchUp alot but it's really a CAD program, I design wood working projects etc. Not really played with the model side for export.

  • cluelessnubecluelessnube Website User Posts: 476 Just Starting Out

    Hi Andy,

    Yes, SketchUp undoubtably does all kinds of things I'm as yet unaware of.   That probably explains the price.  

    From the start my interest is in building things I can import in to Hitfilm scenes.  I spent the first 2 days of research doing nothing but making sure that I could bring models in to Hitfilm, and if that wasn't possible I would have moved on.

    A key motivator for me is having a source of models that I know for sure will work in Hitfilm.  As example, I just spent 3-4 hours testing models at TurboSquid and could only get about 10-15% of the models to work in Hitfilm.   That's pretty much been my experience of 3D models for the last couple of years and as you've seen, that's not helping my attitude.   So, hopefully SketchUp will be my escape from all that.

    I've put a thread about SketchUp here on the Hitfilm forum because, thanks to SketchUp, I am for the first time considering upgrading to Hitfilm Pro.  When few 3D models worked for me it didn't make sense to spend hundreds of dollars on Hitfilm's 3D features.  Maybe now it does.  

     My first project will be to duplicate the simple house built in the video tutorial shown above, and add lights, characters, furniture etc in Hitfilm.    We'll see how that goes.

     

     

  • cluelessnubecluelessnube Website User Posts: 476 Just Starting Out

    Hmm....

    I made my first house in SketchUp.   Can't seem to get it in to Hitfilm.    When I try to import the FBX file my Mac reports Hitfilm is not responding and I have to force quit out.   Any ideas anybody?

    The FBX file is 70.9 MB.   The folder with all textures and FBX is 71.5 MB.  

    Here's what the model looks like in SketchUp.   As you can see, it's the most amazing house of all time.  

  • Stargazer54Stargazer54 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,709 Ambassador

    If possible export to obj.   U may find u will have convert in another 3d program.  

  • GrayMotionGrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,366 Enthusiast
    edited July 8

    What is the polycount (the total number of polygons found in a three-dimensional model) of the model? I'm going out on a limb and say not many based on the looks of the "cartoon" model but is worth asking. If you want to share it with me I can test it here and see if I get the same result. I have a 2013 27" iMac I can test it on.

  • cluelessnubecluelessnube Website User Posts: 476 Just Starting Out
    edited July 8

    @GrayMotion - hey, thanks for that offer.   I'd be happy to share the file with you, but before I take up your time with that....

    I googled the issue and learned how to find this info.   This model has 684 edges and 32 faces.   Somebody on their forum says faces are equivalent to polygons.

    Don't know if this is relevant, but the house is one thing, I imported the planters, and made the concrete slab.  (Their 3D Warehouse has lots of free models I can import in to my scene without (so  far) worrying about whether they will import correctly.  Like that!)  So I guess I'm trying to import multiple models at once?   Not a good plan?  

    I exported the model to DAE (only option in free version) and converted it  to FBX using Autodeck FBX Converter, a workflow which has worked for me a number of times (on simpler models).

    I did try to import in to Hitfilm three times, and failed each time.   Best I can tell from a position  of ignorance, Hitfilm is choking on the model.  

    If you see any obvious problems above, happy to hear them.   

    And/or, this is just a learning project so I can try deleting some stuff from the scene and see if that makes a difference.   I really have no idea what I should reasonably be able to import in to Hitfilm at once.

    If none of the above works, I'd be happy to have you take a look when time permits.  I have PLENTY to learn about SketchUp in the meantime.  

    If anyone else should wish to make the best house of all time by far, this video shows how.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1194&v=sQSyofKyKIQ&feature=emb_logo

     

     

  • GrayMotionGrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,366 Enthusiast
    edited July 8

    Well - the model polys have nothing to do with it (as I already knew).

    Not sure what you mean by multiple models. If everything is in one "scene" that is a single model. Regardless something is wonky as you say.

    I would try as Stargazer suggested - try and convert the model to an obj.

    Please don't throw a rock at me - the DAE file can be opened in Blender. From there you can simply convert it to an FBX or an obj. Autodesk works at times and at times not.

  • cluelessnubecluelessnube Website User Posts: 476 Just Starting Out
    edited July 8

    Here's what I get when I open the DAE in Blender, export to FBX, and then import in to Hitfilm.   

    OBJ is pretty much the same thing, except even less detail.   A grayed out blob in roughly the shape of the house.

    In both cases the planters were lost entirely.   Wondering if that tells us anything.

    I put the DAE and textures exported by SketchUp here if anyone wishes to test them.   

    http://tanny.com/hitfilm/dae-and-textures.zip

    I'll go back to SketchUp, create a series of simple quick models, and try to move them to Hitfilm by the method that has always worked until now, and try to determine how reliable that transfer method is.    

  • cluelessnubecluelessnube Website User Posts: 476 Just Starting Out
    edited July 8

    I made a long cube, cut a hole in it, and then applied different colors to different faces.   Export to DAE, convert to FBX in Autodesk, import to Hitfilm.   Worked perfectly.   No hassles of any kind.    Very simple model though.   

    Next experiment, add textures to cube instead of just colors.  Worked also.

    Next experiment, added one of those planters to the scene with my simple cube.  Hitfilm can't eat it, dying again.

    Took the planters out of my original house scene above, and the transfer to Hitfilm then worked.

    It could very well be that there's something I need to learn about exporting SketchUp scenes containing multiple models.   Will dig in to that next.

     

  • Stargazer54Stargazer54 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,709 Ambassador

    FYI, SketchUp is more of an architectural design program (more like AutoCad) and not designed to play well with others (this is is from past experience - I have not looked at it lately).  So you are most probably going to have to take anything that comes out of SketchUp and import into a bonafide 3D program for clean up.  Blender is the obvious choice because it is free and it does a good job.

    What do I mean by clean up?  I suspect that some of your objects have geometry errors, like missing polygons, double sided polys, or illegal polys that need to be triangulated.  HF is not very forgiving if there are geometry errors in a model.  Also, most "free" models available for download from various sites have geometry errors.

    Kind of get what you pay for.  I know 3D has a steep learning curve and can be frustrating, but if that is the kind of work you want to do then you have to do the road work and learn a 3D package. 

    FXHome recently produced a series of masterclass tutorials on using Blender with HitFilm.

    I am new to Blender myself and found it very useful.  But like anything - music, writing, painting - and yes 3D you only get good at by doing it everyday.  Even with my experience as an animator I would only become proficient in Blender if I worked with it every day.  The onsey twosey times I go in there I am always fumbling for the right menu.  3D is not easy and switching from one program to another is like learning everything all over again.

    You may be on to something with SketchUp as an entry level approach.  Again you may have to spend some time cleaning up models if they have complicated shapes or curves.

  • cluelessnubecluelessnube Website User Posts: 476 Just Starting Out

    @Stargazer54 - thanks for your input.  

    I posted on the SketchUp forum and learned the SketchUp 3D Warehouse is just another collection of models by anybody from anywhere.   I had the wishful thinking notion that all Warehouse models were made in SketchUp and thus would be the same quality as the models I'm making in  SketchUp, all of which go effortlessly in to Hitfilm, so far at least.   

    Point being, the problem discussed above was caused by the addition of Warehouse models to my scene.  Once I removed the Warehouse models import in to Hitfilm then worked again.     This is unfortunate as it's going to significantly limit the value of SketchUp to me, but it's still a cool program.

    You write, "I know 3D has a steep learning curve and can be frustrating".   

    That has been my experience so far for sure, except in SketchUp.   So far at least, SketchUp appears to be very newbie friendly, and it's models go perfectly and effortlessly in to Hitfilm (after a conversion to FBX).   If that situation remains stable, then I've found what I've been looking for.    We shall see...

     

     

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,245 Ambassador

    9

    All 3D Warehouse models ARE made in Sketchup. Sketchup doesn't automatically cure the issues of poorly made models, as you've discovered.

    @Stargazer54 wrote:

    "I suspect that some of your objects have geometry errors, like missing polygons, double sided polys, or illegal polys that need to be triangulated.  HF is not very forgiving if there are geometry errors in a model."

    Once again, this can happen with any model. 

    Ok, in the beginning was the triangle. At the dawn of 3D modeling, back in the 1960's a triangle poky/face was king because 3 vertices is the minimum data needed for a 3D poly (or 3D track). 

    Later quads were added, then n-gons (any number of vertices in the poly). That said, some programs, like HITFILM triangulate all non-triangular polys on import. As Lynn said, Hitfilm is very strict. A lot of issues with online models is they are built in program X, and often converted to different formats to distribute. The person doing the conversion might be doing a "Export As" but not checking for a clean model - case in point from my own current Blender project. Polys have "normals." The normal is an imaginary line, perpendicular to the face of the poly (look at your table. That's a poly. Take a pencil and put in eraser down in the center of the table so the lead points up. The pencil is the normal.). The normal is what the computer looks at to determine which way the poly is facing, and is used to calculate angle of incidence for light rays. (Only the normals are generally used for this, sometimes the vertices, and only ray tracing checks every pixel). Now... A poly "doesn't exist" on the side opposite the normal. If the normal is the "front side," the back side "doesn't exist." This is so the renderer doesn't waste time rendering the back because, well. Picture a cube. Don't need to render the inside... 

    Yeah, Blender renders front and back faces by default. Using things like mirror and array modifiers will cause all kinds of issues with flipped/inverted normals. This will not show in Blender, but will in Hitfilm. 

    Lots of cleaning normals. 

    It's one of many issues with other people's models. That person who only uses Blender is going to screw up a lot of converted models because that person never sees inverted normals, and might not even know what the hell a normal is, because no Blender tutorial I've followed talks about them!

    That's one issue. Let's talk triangulation. 

    Your model has "684 edges and 32 faces." This tells me you used a lot of n-gons (a triangulated cube has 18 edges and 12 polys). Potential issue here is Hitfilm is converting all those n-gons to triangles (or you are, in Blender). This can cause artifacts - back to my own Blender project, I'm having "flat" rectangles suddenly showing as two triangles that aren't aligned. Random angled edges are appearing. Now, the issue only appears after I bevel edges so everything isn't a perfect edge... But the additional polys caused by the bevels are messing up the triangulation. I've been using the bevel tool, and bevel modifier and having the same issue... Well, I'm about to do it the hard way and manually create all the bevels so I can control the geometry. If I weren't building the model for HITFILM, I wouldn't have this problem at all, but, because I'm building for HITFILM I have to do the extra work. If I were just sticking with Blender I wouldn't care - the quads would be fine.

    All of which is a lot of info and examples to again nail the point that glitchy models ultimately come down to the artist needing to consider low-level functions like how renders actually work, when working in proprietary things with their own workarounds.

    It also doesn't help that the "democratization" of 3D via cheap computers and software and YouTube tutorials from the self-taught have led to a blurring of the original and SPECIFIC technical jargon into vague buzzwords. Don't get me started on how "HDR" means totally different things between photo and video and how "PBR" (Physically Based Rendering) is misused.

    Screw it, I'll hit PBR. Hitfilm has two render engines: Blinn Phong and Cook-Torrance. BOTH are physically based renderers. So are engines like Lambert, Evee, Cycles, Vray, etc. Not all physically based renderers are the same. Some have more control (Cook-Torrance has more control than Phong) than others. Some are optimized for different surfaces. Cook-Torrance is optimized for metals, while Lambert is best for matte surfaces. (Definitions note: "render engine," "illumination model," and "shader" all mean the same thing, just like "face/poly," or "point/empty/null." "SSDN" "Same >Stuff< Different Name.")

    But, go online and search for "PBR Materials" and you'll find a bunch... These will include Diffuse maps, specular maps, normal maps.... Maybe height and illumination maps. Maybe other maps. 

    A map is NOT physically based data, and, the entire term "Physically-based material" in this context is meaningless. The physically based properties are entirely a function of the render engine. The map provides information the renderer uses, but, again, the map is not physically based.

    If I take the same "PBR material" into a Phong, Cook-Torrance and Lambert shader they won't look the same. Phong has no "roughness," Lambert has no "fresnel."

    Roughness is a Physically-based property - picture the divots of a golf ball. The divots scatter light. Now imagine your entire model is covered in microscopic divots... Roughness determines the depth of the divot. Deeper divots scatter light, leading to softer, but larger specular highlights.

    Fresnel covers how the apparent color of a specular highlight change depending on the angle of incidence of a light ray. The fresnel value in Hitfilm's Cook Torrance is three numbers - Red Green Blue values measured from 0 (none) to 1 (full). Using Hitfilm's "Gold" preset as the example, the RG values are higher than B. R+G=yellow, so indirect lighting reflects as more yellow.

    And none of the Roughness or Fresnel is controlled by the maps in the "PBR" material. It's the shader. The map does control where on the model the shader applies the physics - a specular map is black and white where black has no specular reflection, white is full specular reflection - but (in Cook-Torrance) it's the specular color, specular reflectance, fresnel and roughness - all physics controls - that determine how the specular highlights look. All part of the shader, nothing to do with the maps.

    As you can tell the entire "PBR materials" market ticks me off because it's just leading to a generation of artists who don't actually know how things work, and build sloppy.

    As a side note, the whole series of digressions into terminology and principles is part of the Hit-U philosophy... There's a reason all my videos start with definitions, principles and background. Sure, even I usually tell people to start, say, my "Optimize Footage" tutorial at 19 minutes, when I get to using MediaInfo and Handbrake to fix VFR, but the first 15 minutes of the video are for those who want to learn WHY VFR is a problem or why mp4 is slow to edit. Half the users don't care and just want the laundry list of steps... I cater to both kinds of people. 

  • cluelessnubecluelessnube Website User Posts: 476 Just Starting Out

    @Triem23 writes...

    "All 3D Warehouse models ARE made in Sketchup. Sketchup doesn't automatically cure the issues of poorly made models, as you've discovered."

    Can you explain further?   For instance, if I wanted to make a poorly made model in SketchUp, how would I do that?   Why does the program create good models in some cases, and poor models in other cases?

    @Triem23 writes...

    "All of which is a lot of info and examples to again nail the point that glitchy models ultimately come down to the artist needing to consider low-level functions like how renders actually work, when working in proprietary things with their own workarounds."

    All I can say, just as a matter of personal taste, is that I've yet to see the 3D anything which merits this level of technological immersion.     As I've previously honked, I see such a necessity as a failure of the 3D industry to capitalize on it's largest potential market, all those very many folks who might like to do 3D, but don't share Triems's elevated level of interest in arcane technological nerdology.   The 3D industry is serving Triem well, and that's great, but in doing so it's leaving most of the money on the  table.    

    Triem writes...

    "As you can tell the entire "PBR materials" market ticks me off because it's just leading to a generation of artists who don't actually know how things work, and build sloppy."

    Artists are supposed to be sloppy, that's their job.  :-)  You're blame shifting again, and showing a misunderstanding of software development.  It's the CODER's job to not be sloppy, and to provide an interface that allows artists to be artists.  It's the coder's job to deliver technology which is as invisible as possible. 

    If they can't do that because the state of the art just isn't there yet, ok, fair enough.  So let's label the current state of the 3D industry for what it is, primitive.   And let's stop blaming users for that state of affairs, as they had  nothing to do with it.   

    If you created a video in Hitfilm and almost no one could view it the way you made it without first getting a PhD in arcane nerdology, what would you call that situation?  Primitive, right?  

    honk, Honk, HONK!!!  :-)

     

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,245 Ambassador

    "Artists are supposed to be sloppy, that's their job. :-) You're blame shifting again, and showing a misunderstanding of software development. It's the CODER's job to not be sloppy, and to provide an interface that allows artists to be artists."

    Incorrect. The CODERS developed a precise, specific argot. It's the horde of users who corrupted the term "PBR" with misuse.

    And, the sloppiness of artists you just championed is the exact damned reason why half the models you've downloaded don't work. Sloppy builds. 

    How could someone build sloppy models in Sketchup that don't work? Tons of possibilities, ranging from fouled up normals to co-planer faces to a host of possible other issues Stargazer and I have already discussed. The harsh reality of my statement is proven by your own experience. Lest you forget, you're the one who had issues with your own model until you removed the broken elements someone else built. Since I don't have the models in question there's no way to know how they got FUBARed.

    You keep comparing apples and oranges with frivolous comparisons between ASCII, video files and 3D modelling. I'm sure I'm not the only one rolling my eyes. 

  • cluelessnubecluelessnube Website User Posts: 476 Just Starting Out

    Hi again Triem,

    A bottom line we might be able to agree on is that nerds relish technological challenges, and so the 3D industry is providing them with the experience they wish to have, problems which require solving.   The nerds are getting what they want and so they are happy.   Nothing at all wrong with that.   Just not a "one true way" , that's all.

    We're getting a couple of different things confused. 

    1) If anyone wishes to create anything at all sophisticated in any medium they're going to have to do the homework.  We agree on this.

    2) Transferring a file from point A to point B is not a sophisticated operation.   Any industry which can't provide a reliable method of transferring data from one place to another is a primitive industry.  That's an industry problem, not a user problem.  

    A quick example.   Until the 19th  century every town had it's own time, depending on when the sun rose over that particular town.   When the railroads came along with their dramatically increased travel speeds all these different times made scheduling trains and keeping them safe a huge problem.   After a fair amount of FUBAR they solved the problem by dividing the country in to four time zones, instead of a thousand.   That is, they standardized time.   They evolved the situation from a primitive state to a mature state.

    The 3D industry today is like all the different times in all the different towns before the railroads came.  Everybody has their own 3D format, so pretty much nothing works smoothly and predictably with anything else.   The source of this problem is not sloppy lazy users etc, it's an immature industry which has yet to figure out how to standardize.  

    Triem writes....

    "Incorrect. The CODERS developed a precise, specific argot. It's the horde of users who corrupted the term "PBR" with misuse. And, the sloppiness of artists you just championed is the exact damned reason why half the models you've downloaded don't work. Sloppy builds."

    Who made it possible for the unwashed hordes to create sloppy builds?  

    If I export a video out of Hitfilm and upload it to the net 99% of viewers will be able to watch the videos, as I made it, without any technological skills other than knowing how to launch a web browser.   As far as I know, Hitfilm wouldn't even allow me to make a "sloppy build" video that wouldn't present easily and reliably to the vast majority of the audience.   

    Your solution is that all the amateur nerds should become expert nerds like you.   And a few will.  But most won't.   And all those who don't or can't become experts will pack up and leave the 3D market and take their purchasing power to some other arena.  

    If you want to see where this is going, just follow the money.   For every highly skilled technologist such as yourself there are a hundred or a thousand little amateur video nerds like me.  

     

  • Andy001zAndy001z Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,863 Ambassador

    Hitfilm is a powerful composting tool, it allows 3d models to be brought in but sometimes these need a little external TLC to make them work well. Yes it would be lovely if it all just worked, but as has been mentioned the maturity of the 3d standards is just not there.

    If you want simply 3d drop and drag stuff, then I suggest Windows 10 video editor, I do not joke when I say it is actually really not bad for simple get a video done. Effects and 3d models from within the program can be used really quickly and so far it all just works. What it lacks is a multi layer stack and a tone of video editing opens, but it does have the basics to get something put together quickly.

    I use a range of tools to complete me videos, I might edit a scene in Windows Video editor, export it bring it into Hitfilm to add to it or the larger video.

    Andy

  • GrayMotionGrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,366 Enthusiast

    Ok I risked being banned here and so be it if it happens...

    Clueless - You are a real piece of work in my humble opinion. Instead of accepting help you turn it into a philosophy whining session. You should consider yourself privileged that Mike ( a REAL expert) actually came back to a thread you created to HELP YOU OUT. At one point he was done with you. I don't blame him either.

    You sir seem to want to always inject your philosophy and blame the industry for your own ignorance. Grow up man! Either put in the work and learn or simply move on. This forum is no place for debating what you perceive to be the industries down falls.

    These folks in this forum have much more patience for you than I do. I've known your kind my entire life and yes..I ain't no 48 years old. No matter how "We the People" try and help people like you ya'll just don't get it. Go teach in a college or something dude (yea I'm from the sixties) because I doubt very seriously your ever going to get past downfalls of anything without a 50,000 word essay on why everyone is wrong and you're right.

    Nuff said!! Unlike Mike...I-am-done with you. Good luck sir.

    ~Sorry to the community - and to Mike, Lynn, Frank and the entire FXHome team...I apologies profusly.~

  • cluelessnubecluelessnube Website User Posts: 476 Just Starting Out

    @GrayMotion - you write...

    "Clueless - You are a real piece of work in my humble opinion. Instead of accepting help you turn it into a philosophy whining session. "

    Point of fact, I've gratefully accepted LOTS of help all over the forum, including in this thread.  

    Philosophy is not whining.  It's thinking.  I get that some people don't enjoy philosophy.   No problem.  The solution is simple.  Don't read my posts, or anybody's philosophy posts.   I've spent about a billion hours on philosophy forums over 20 years.   There are places online where a process of challenge and counter challenge is considered an entirely valid and useful process of intellectual investigation.  But it's of course true that, like anything else, it's not for everybody.

    You write, "You should consider yourself privileged that Mike ( a REAL expert)"

    I've repeatedly stated that Mike (and you and others here) are real experts.  But, you guys are experts at technology, and not EVERYTHING having to do with the 3D experience.    There are other aspects to this experience such as human motions, motivation management, business considerations, the art of teaching, interface design and so on that are reasonably explored, even if such arenas don't happen to be someone's particular area of expertise or interest.  

    Mike has been voluntarily engaging with me because the topics I've raised have interested him, and replying to me assists him in having the expert experience which he enjoys.  Nobody owes anybody anything.  I'm not asking anyone to feel privileged to talk with me, and I'm going to laugh off any suggestion I carry that burden here.

    As I cheerfully see it, the reason some folks might be getting a bit upset is that some folks wish to insist that 3D is about technology exclusively, because that's the stage upon which they can play the role of expert.   And so if someone tries to expand the conversation beyond the realm where they can be comfortable playing the expert role, they may resist the expanded focus.   This is entirely normal behavior on any Internet forum, because all forums are populated by human beings.

    You write, "This forum is no place for debating what you perceive to be the industries down falls."  

    The mods are free to delete my posts at any time, as I've already invited them to do with my blessing.   Best I can tell, you do not own this forum.  Moving along....

    Let me ask you this Gray. 

    Do you have a teaching degree?  If not, perhaps there is a thing or two you could learn from me, just as I'm learning from you.

    Have you ever launched and sold an Internet tech startup, and then retired?  If not, perhaps there is a thing or two you could learn from me,  just as I'm learning from you.

    Have you coded your own forum and blog network software, or any other software?  If not, perhaps there is a thing or two you could learn from me, just as I'm learning from you.

    The problem appears to be that some members are only comfortable when they are in the role of expert and teacher.    Any kind of real exchange between human beings with a variety of life experiences learning from each other is too threatening?  

    Anyway, you'll never be banned.  You're way too nice for that.   Me on the other hand, well, let's just say, I've probably be banned from more forums than you've visited.   

    This debate dance we're doing right now Gray, I'm the expert on this turf.   Sometimes other men can't handle that, and so they get mad or run and hide etc, as is their right.   But sorry, I respectfully decline to limit my writing to anyone else's intellectual or emotional limitations.   

    3D is about human emotions guys.  If you can't handle such things, perhaps you're in the wrong biz?

     

  • KirstieTKirstieT Staff Administrator, Moderator, Website User Posts: 1,055 Staff
    edited July 13

    OK guys - @Triem23 @GrayMotion and @cluelessnube, can see that things are getting a little heated in here. 

    As always, the FXhome forum is a place for support and positive vibes, we don't want anyone to come away feeling angry or upset by anything that's been said in our forums. @Triem23thank you for sharing your knowledge, I (and many other users) really appreciate you taking the time to help out users of the forum, no matter their skill level. 

    @GrayMotion, same to you re trying to help, but I do need to warn you not to make any insults personal. You're a long-time and respected member of the community and while I understand that you've been frustrated by the post, I'm holding you accountable to the same rules as everyone else when you use language like 'piece of work'. 

    @cluelessnube you're welcome to have your opinion on the best workflow for 3D and it is good to see this level of conversation between users. However, this kind of thread seems to be less about sharing and receiving assistance when it comes to the problems you're encountering, and more about debating with other users, resorting to provocation if there isn't an agreement. It's come to our attention that a few of your threads (not just this one) have devolved into more of the same. In particular, suggesting that someone is not 'a man' if they decide to step away from a disagreement with you is damaging and absolutely not on. I remind you of our community participation guidelines: https://fxhome.com/forum/discussion/51711/community-participation-guidelines#latest

    I'm also unsure of why you mention being banned from more forums than others have visited - as you can imagine, that causes us concern as to your overall behavior online. Consider this your warning to comply with our guidelines - if not, we will need to take further action to preserve this safe and helpful online space. 

  • cluelessnubecluelessnube Website User Posts: 476 Just Starting Out

    @KirstieT - thanks for your input.   I hope it's ok to remind us of a couple of things...

    1) Nobody is obligated or required to read any thread, post or poster which they don't find enjoyable for any reason.

    2) I've already invited the mods on a couple of occasions to delete any posts or threads of mine for any reason with my blessing.   I'm agreeable to extending this invitation to banning.  You will find that I always reply to a banning threat by agreeing to it in advance.   It's your forum to run how you wish, no argument at all with that.

    3) If this was real forum software (as I suggested when I first arrived here) then there would a feature which would allow any member to put me on an ignore list so that they would never have to see any of my posts ever again.  I'm entirely agree to that.   Failing a block feature, there are always the readily available scroll bars.    There are purely technical solutions here.

    4) Nobody here is a victim of anything but their own voluntary choices, me included.  

    5) Meaning no disrespect to anyone, but I don't write to order unless there is a pay check involved.

    Yes, I'm a nerd man and have been banned from a good number of nerd man forums, that's true.  What typically happens is what has happened here.  Some nerd men are unable or unwilling to participate in any conversation in which they aren't assigned the teacher/expert role.   Sometimes that's the only configuration of conversation which they are emotionally capable of accepting and when they don't get it they get mad, stomp off, call for a banning etc.   

    There's no big crime here, it's just daily life in nerd man land, just another day in the office.

     

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