Is this a decent enough editing/compositing/VFX computer?

vanya_kvanya_k Website User Posts: 141 Just Starting Out

Before I pull the trigger on this computer I just wanted to hear your opinion of the given configuration in this link. I do a lot of CGI heavy scenes in HitFilm and plan on doing more of that kind of stuff so I just want to make sure this machine can run it. I never saw 1 single project in my HitFilm run in even semi real time and I had 16 GB RAM. Now I am getting 64RAM I hope that's enough for HitFilm to play basic footage in real time. I don't even care about 4 K that's impossible to render. Anyway, here's the link

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Z5G96RN/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3?smid=A2J5K8GMDTUJVM&psc=1

Comments

  • triforcefxtriforcefx United StatesModerator, Website User Posts: 1,059 Moderator

    I could be wrong, but I believe I’ve heard of HitFilm sometimes having issues with workstation-level graphics cards. 

    Maybe someone else has more knowledge of this, but I think consumer-level cards are usually your best bet.

    Everything else looks fine.

  • kevin_nkevin_n Website User Posts: 1,918 Enthusiast

    Workstation graphics cards do work with HitFilm, but the price:performance is what you're missing out on, making them bad purchases if using with anything but studio quality applications, e.g Maya. Quick example on price: QUADRO P2200, beast of a graphics card, however will only perform like a GTX ~1060 in HitFilm, this gives us an approx 2:1 conversion ratio comparing strictly the cost of each card. It varies greatly and 2:1 is low, but if it was e.g the P2000, it would have been 4:1 and the performance of a GTX 1050 Ti. 

    Everything else will work, but since it's a prebuilt, try to look for something branded gaming which meets your other requirements, e.g RAM.

  • vanya_kvanya_k Website User Posts: 141 Just Starting Out
    edited May 18

    Wow I am beyond confused. I was told to look into Quadro cards because they are for professionals and not these gamer kids. I should also tell you that I don't know what "workstation" means in reference to a graphic card. So thanks for your replies as I don' know anything about building a PC and its parts.

    How does Hitfilm render expensive graphic card to a cheap status? That means nobody will ever have a smooth workflow in HitFilm or? 

    I will use iClone which is super powerful 3D animation software and stuff like that to generate environments and props and stuff and composit them in HitFilm so I do need all that power I believe for other 3D applications and real time PBR rendering but hey I know nothing about PCs. I used Mac for ages (unfortunately I hate Macs now obviously) and I realized Macs are toys and I needed a real deal so I saw this 2+k computer and thought it would be powerful but hey if you think I can save a ton of money and get a 1500 machine that would feel the same than great. I did say I know nothing about all of this its all just letters and numbers to me. You can Apple products successfully work on dumbing us down since their invention. I can also tell my PC buddies are much sharper and more gear literate. 
    Anyway thank you all for your input. I know nothing so everything helps.

  • NormanPCNNormanPCN Website User Posts: 3,945 Enthusiast
    edited May 19

    "I should also tell you that I don't know what "workstation" means in reference to a graphic card."

    Workstation is just a different line of GPU cards. In the case of Nvidia these are the quadro cards. In fact these cards use the same GPU cips as the consumer cards. Some additional GPU chip features package enabled. Multiple DMA channels comes to mind here. Workstation cards typically have/support more RAM, ECC ram and also typically run at lower clock rates than the consumer equiv actual GPU chip. 10-bit monitor support has been a workstation only feature but that is starting to trickle elsewhere. There is the whole consumer driver is crippled for certain features. That can become an endless pissing match. Double sided surface comes to mind here. Depending on generational era, workstation GPUs might support better 64-bit float performance relative to consumer. That (best 64-bit support) has mostly moved to the Tesla line in the case of Nvidia.

    The cards are very overpriced given the hardware similarity to consumer but they can get away with that within their very targeted market and having the custom GL(?) drivers for specific 3D modeling apps can help.

    Official support is certainly a thing. To support something FxHome needs to have an installation to test with. With everything that is out there this adds up. The drivers are certainly different and this can be a big rub for support. A 2060 and a 2080 ti are similar to support. They use the same driver. A high end card has the same hardware function and the lower end cards within a generation. It just has more of the "same". It can do more in parallel and thus end up being faster. Workstation card drivers are different code. For decades there has always been a bitch session about driver stability and what not. Workstation drivers are better validated. While a driver function can be well defined there are often idiosyncrasies across drivers and this can make a moving target. Potential PITA.

     "How does Hitfilm render expensive graphic card to a cheap status?"

    That is certainly an interesting question. I'm not so sure it does render them cheap. They are certainly not officially supported.

     

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,227 Ambassador

    Hitfilm is OpenGL based. OpenGL is a known, standard library, and the consumer gaming cards deal with it well. With Nvidia splitting between "gamer" and "studio" drivers recent posts on the forum seem to indicate better results in Hitfilm when using the gaming drivers, because Hitfilm's internal engine is similar to how games approach things.

    Workstation cards expect, for the most part, to have a custom, optimized driver provided by the graphics app...so something like Modo or Houdini will have specific Quadro drivers. Hitfilm isn't coding custom drivers, instead using the consumer Nvidia drivers. 

    I think that clarifies and simplifies Norman's excellent post, above. 

  • vanya_kvanya_k Website User Posts: 141 Just Starting Out
    edited May 19

    @NormanPCN Thank you for that detailed explanation. I need to reread it few times due to my poor understanding of technical part of how that all works. Great to hear that doesn't matter to Hit Film which graphic card I am using. I am sure I can save few hundred jus there.      

    @Triem23 Interesting, well I will be using also iClone which is as your probably know somewhat demanding I would expect base on constant PBR rendering in real time. So if you have any suggestion I would like to hear it. Meaning what graphic card would run HitFilm at best possible speed and also be able to work with 3D scenes and multiple assets in the programs like iClone or Blender. One thing I know I won't go under 64 RAM as that is needed to be maxed out for any application. 

  • GrayMotionGrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,360 Enthusiast
    edited May 19

    I can voice you my own experience with iClone 7, Unreal and Blender. I have a 10 series GTX 1070 8/GB and I have experienced  no notable rendering/performance issues with Realtime GI editing in iClone.  For further info you can look at iClone 7 system requirements page where they break down GI performance vs Graphics Cards -

    https://manual.reallusion.com/iClone_7/ENU/Content/iClone_7/Pro_7.4/04_Introducing_the_User_Interface/System_Requirements.htm

    Now of course if you go heavy heavy heavy with everything that iClone has to offer ie: Popcorn FX , Tessellation and the like then you may begin to see video memory issues:

    BUT - "Due to VXGI consuming large amounts of GPU memory, if found to be inefficient, it will start to utilize system memory (at this point the FPS in iClone may drop by half)"

    EDIT: For your future endeavors - One thing to look at when you're using iClone and you begin to experience issues is to review the Realtime Rendering or Playback notes:

    https://manual.reallusion.com/iClone_7/ENU/Content/iClone_7/Pro_7.4/04_Introducing_the_User_Interface/For_Real_Time_Rendering_or_Playback.htm

    As for Blender -I've yet to see any problems there either. Blender has come along way. I do use @spydurhank 's custom coded Blender called "Filmer" - his custom code can really crank out some fast renders...now of course again if your heavy heavy heavy with the particle system and physics then you may indeed see slower rendering. 

    Hitfilm - No complaints---again heavy heavy heavy then render times slow down and UI performance does lag a bit. But that happens with any editing software no?

    Speed is addicting - you always want more..at least that's been my experience :-)

    “If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough.” ― Mario Andretti

    I yield back to Norman's excellent post.

  • spydurhankspydurhank Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,821 Ambassador

    Howdy, @vanya_k ,

    I'd get the best you can afford. You'll need a high-end gpu and cpu for heavy 3D stuff in a dedicated 3D application no matter what. 

    More cpu cores + more gpu v-ram + more system ram, I normally get a minimum of 64 gigs. I was "this" close to getting 128 gigs of system ram for my latest pc build but settled on 64.

    All that power will make a difference in Hitfilm, the plus side is that the Hitfilm devs are always improving performance on each new release of Hitfilm.

    I've used Hitfilm with these video cards.

    4gig gtx 970: Not bad but not very good either.

    32gig Radeon Pro Duo Polaris: Way better than gtx 970 but not as good as I'd like either.

    24gig RTX Titan: Whoa, this card rocks!!! I'd still like to see better performance in Hitfilm with this video card though. I just really like going fast. :)

    If you can't splurge on the best hardware now, then purchase what you can afford and do your best to get a machine with enough room to upgrade the hardware that you had to settle on.

    @Graymotion ,

    I just dropped a new Filmer release on my website the other day.

    I've unified a few Blender/Pixar render sampling generation methods and other sampling concepts with a little bit of math to "further" speed up rendering in Filmer. Click the new "Device Boost" toggle under the "Sampling" sub-panel in the Render Properties Panel for a nice surprise. :)

    https://www.owmycgi.net/product-page/filmer-v2-90-2-05-17-2020 

  • NormanPCNNormanPCN Website User Posts: 3,945 Enthusiast

    "“If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough.” ― Mario Andretti"

    Love it. Love it. Love it.

    "With Nvidia splitting between "gamer" and "studio" drivers..."

    I question if the studio drivers are much different than the regular driver. AKA The gamer driver if you will.

    The studio drivers are released on a much less frequent basis. Supposedly since they are validated against certain applications. Less bleeding edge so to speak. As stated over the years there has been a constant bitch about driver stability. With the GPU being used so much these days in "work" type apps and that group is less concerned about bleeding edge performance, the studio driver seems to be leaning towards that.

    With Workstation cards there is money in there for the likes of Nvidia to do custom tweaked OpenGL drivers for specific major apps. Really not that many of them. That also lends to them validating the driver stability heavily.

    "...Hitfilm's internal engine is similar to how games approach things."

    I severely doubt that.

    "Great to hear that doesn't matter to Hit Film which graphic card I am using. I am sure I can save few hundred jus there. "

    You are really best off with that fastest thing you can reasonably afford with suitable amount of ram. Frankly that is going to be a regular (aka consumer) card. This affects the performance of effects. Like Glow for example. An effect that FxHome needs to looked at. Things like particles have a lot of CPU as well as GPU.

    Any more "advanced" HW feature of a workstation card like multiple DMA,  Hitfilm is not going to use that.

     

  • CleverTaglineCleverTagline Moderator Las Vegas, NVModerator, Website User, Ambassador, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 3,029 Ambassador

    @vanya_k: "I realized Macs are toys ... Apple products successfully work on dumbing us down since their invention. I can also tell my PC buddies are much sharper and more gear literate."

    Please, no platform bashing, or bashing users of other platforms. There are very tech-savvy people on all platforms, and very tech-illiterate people on all platforms. It's up to each person to decide how deep they want to go with their gear, regardless of what that gear is. If someone chooses not to go very deep, that doesn't make them a lower life form.

  • vanya_kvanya_k Website User Posts: 141 Just Starting Out
    edited May 20

    GrayMotion Wow a lot of info here between you and @NormanPCN that I have to digest. But expectation is not to have light speed fast renders and stuff but just to be able to work. With 16BG RAM on my Macs I can barely run HitFilm 1080P. Once you put first effect, even Curves and stuff...no more real time (if it ever was). So 3 Layers in and I need exports to see it in real time. I can see 1 frame every 3 seconds. I usually have 24 FPS  in my projects so even RAM preview takes forever. Most of my renders are crashes anyway. I am surprised when my render don't crash. So it's not even about speed, I just need it done. It's like painting in the dark. Exactly the same.

    spydurhank. I would pimp it up to any possible number human money can buy. 64RAM is my minimum from now on (as I said I can run like 3 effects on 16GB RAM but it's Mac so I am not surprised). I am a audio engineer for years and audio is my specialty but that is easy it's VFX that take all that RAM so now I will need it., As far as graphic cards go I thought that QUADRO would be nail in a coffin of every program. But now I hear don't buy Quadro it's too powerful. Didn't know extra power would be a problem. You see my situation is that I need that computer in next 10 days because I am out of Macs. Literally I had 3 Mac die on me this year and I disposed of anything Apple in  my chain and only Amazon can deliver as fast as next week. These other boastful companies "come here let us make your dream machine" are useless. Dell wants me to wait for a month. I am like "It's Los Angeles, 2020 I  can do it myself in a month you are a computer store? Don't you have computers....in the...store that sells computers???". God it's so fu''''' frustrating. Nobody want's to make money. I have to beg them to get off their ass and run to the warehouse to put me a computer.

    Anyway, I found that initial computer that I posted about but I also found this config here....

    https://www.amazon.com/Dell-XPS-8930-Tower-Desktop/dp/B078PMQHK6/ref=sr_1_66?dchild=1&keywords=gaming+pc&qid=1589972845&refinements=p_n_feature_five_browse-bin:13580787011&rnid=2257851011&s=electronics&sr=1-66&th=1

     

    It's pretty similar, still 64GB RAM but it's i7 not i9 and GPU is I guess more of a "gamer" card vs whatever Nvidia Quadro is categorized to be.

     

    @CleverTagline I am not bashing anything I was unfortunately the one to use Apple while they were still trying and having some sort of quality control and that's why now I don't know what graphic card is. 

     

    Thank you all for your help. I've been in the dark about what to get and how much to spend and there is too much I have no clue about to even try to begin to understand. So thanks for that guys, you're the best.

  • kevin_nkevin_n Website User Posts: 1,918 Enthusiast

    "I will be using also iClone which is as your probably know somewhat demanding I would expect base on constant PBR rendering in real time. So if you have any suggestion I would like to hear it. Meaning what graphic card would run HitFilm at best possible speed and also be able to work with 3D scenes and multiple assets in the programs like iClone or Blender."

    The fastest gaming GPU you can afford for all of the above. The only reason to ever consider a QUADRO is if you are doing prolonged renders where you can't have too many glitches in the final result. While RAM is swapping back and forth, artifacts can and will more often than not show up in the end result. Viewport performance is highly sought after in 3D modelling applications, but even then, Blender, etc are not that to the extent where not having a QUADRO would be detrimental to your experience. They aren't tools which professional studios would use these GPU's for, they're considered entry level. For instance, buying a P2200, or a RTX 2080/2070Ti/Super, will mean the difference between walking and driving a car.

    My 2c.

  • kevin_nkevin_n Website User Posts: 1,918 Enthusiast

    @TheBenNorris Spammer 

    I reported the comment, perhaps it didn't go through. I've done so on 50 or more occasions but action was only taken when you highlight the issue with an additional comment

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