Fire Layer on a moving object

Hello, I have a problem and I don´t know how to fix this. I have a 3D object and the camera which are animated (moving) and I have an explosion layer which should be around the 3D object while it´s moving. All are paired together and the 3D object is moving together with the explosion layer. The problem is at any time the 3D object moves out of the explosion if I look through the Active Camera. I think the problem is the perspective from the camera because I have a 2D explosion layer and a 3D object. But how can I animate the 3D object and the camera so that the explosion is all the time around the object so that it looks real? Hope anybody can help me.

Comments

  • OrangePekoeOrangePekoe Website User Posts: 478
    Depending on the complexity of your 3D camera movement, you can turn your 2D explosion layer into a 3D layer and keyframe it so that it follows the same path as your 3D object and/or parent it to that object.  
    This should then keep the relative distances between both the explosion layer and 3d object layer the same.   
  • MultimediaexMultimediaex Website User Posts: 34
    Sorry I did so. I made a 3D layer of the explosion layer and paire it to the 3D objekt. The problem ist that the 3D object is moving and the camera is moving. So if I paire the 3D object with the explosion to the camera the movement doesn´t look googd. I want to move the camera a little bit around the 3D object and this so that the explosion is on the right place. Hope you know what I mean.
  • OrangePekoeOrangePekoe Website User Posts: 478
    If I'm understanding you correctly, the problem will be that if you're rotating your 3D camera around the 3D object, since the fire layer is a 3D representation of a 2d layer, the fire won't match correctly to your scene because you won't be able to properly rotate around a 2D layer and still have it look normal (the 2D layer has no depth / volume).  As you move around the "3D" explosion layer, it'll look more and more like a "slice" of a 2D layer. 
    Do you have a screenshot or video of the problem?
    From the sounds of it, you should try making a true 3D explosion and parenting that to the 3D object.  It does seem like a perspective issue. 
  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,254 Ambassador
    Although in the Layer Properties of the explosion layer you should be able to change alignment of the layer so that it always faces the camera. It won't "skew" if you do that. It still won't QUITE match right, but better.
  • MultimediaexMultimediaex Website User Posts: 34
    @Triem23 The aligment I changed to the camera but it didn´t help.
    I have made 3 screenshots to understand what I mean.
    [attachment=867:p1.png]

    [attachment=868:p2.png]

    [attachment=869:p3.png]

    @Orange Pekoe Yes this is the problem. Is there any way to fix this or a way how to make this look good.
  • AxelWilkinsonAxelWilkinson Staff Administrator, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 5,241 Staff
    There's no way to move a camera around a 2D explosion in 3D space and have it look right.  You need a 3D explosion if you want to move the camera around it.  It will also depend how quickly the explosion and the camera move happen, as to how much you can cheat and still get a convincing result.
  • MultimediaexMultimediaex Website User Posts: 34
    Ok, perhaps I don't Need to move the camera around but how can I make a nice looking movement of the aieplane over the clouds with a good looking explosion. Or is this Not possible with this setup?
  • SimonKJonesSimonKJones Moderator Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 4,450 Enthusiast
    Can you upload a preview of what you're trying to achieve? It's difficult to know exactly what you're after.
  • MultimediaexMultimediaex Website User Posts: 34
    Ok if I'm at home this evening I will upload a video.
  • MultimediaexMultimediaex Website User Posts: 34
    Hi I wanted make the video for the upload but I have seen there is another problem. How you can see at the first picture I made some masks on the aireplane so that the explosion layer is behind the wings of the aireplane. But if I make a movement of the aireplane the masks are not animated. How can I animate the masks?
    I think there is a problem because in the animation the aireplane comes from behind to front and so I have another perspective of the aireplane so that the aireplane in the front is bigger than behind. That means that the mask has to grow. How can I fix this?
  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,254 Ambassador
    http://youtu.be/ctU2GB8JIPk
    I post the video above, because the explosion at about 15 seconds is built with particle simulation--it's a 3D explosion.
    As far as the mask goes, you just have to manually keyframe your mask path--the process of manually adjusting a mask, frame by frame, is called "rotoscoping." Roto is tedious, boring, and there's still usually no way to avoid it.
    Make your roto work a little easier: Adjust keyframes about every second. Then, if adjustment still needed, every half second.
  • MultimediaexMultimediaex Website User Posts: 34
    Hmm, thanks for this information, this sounds like a lot of work. My problem with particle simulation is I´m a beginner and I´m working on my first project at hitfilm ever and I don´t know how to make it that it looks real as possible. The question is what needs more time to learn the particle simulation or rotoscope the scene. :P 
    I think I will try with rotoscope and we will see what comes out. Thanks for all answers.
  • OrangePekoeOrangePekoe Website User Posts: 478
    Most people start with rotoscoping... I know I did... however, when you can avoid having to do that or limiting how much you have to do by creating something that is truly in 3D space and acts accordingly, it will look better and provide you, the artist, with much more flexibility.  Not to mention the skills you gain out of learning about the particle simulator.
    If time isn't a concern and you're up for learning a new skill I'd say go with the particle simulator....  It will allow you to have those camera moves as well as 3D model moves that you had originally intended.
    I agree with Triem.... after doing a few projects that requires a TON of roto, it's something I prefer to avoid as much as possible using other solutions even if it requires more time to learn a new skill. 
  • MultimediaexMultimediaex Website User Posts: 34
    Yes I think you´re right. There I have a question. Is it possible to make a real looking explosion for example with the paricle simulator like made in blender or 3DS if you have the knowledge or is this not possible with hitfilm? All I have seen until now made with hitfilm looks not truly realistic or comes close to it.
  • OrangePekoeOrangePekoe Website User Posts: 478
    Yes I think you´re right. There I have a question. Is it possible to make a real looking explosion for example with the paricle simulator like made in blender or 3DS if you have the knowledge or is this not possible with hitfilm? All I have seen until now made with hitfilm looks not truly realistic or comes close to it.


    For something as specific as an explosion (smoke simulation), you'd probably be able to create a "more" convincing final product using Blender or 3DS max that are built around full 3D and have the modules specific for those types of applications. 
    It doesn't mean you won't be able to produce something convincing in HitFilm, I believe Kahveh made some pretty nice renders of explosions.  Depending on your level of knowledge of all the applications in question though will determine how easy it is to produce the final result you seek.
    Unless I absolutely need Blender I try and stick with HitFilm because it's more intuitive, faster and for the most part gets the job done.  I don't have 3DS nor have I used it so I cannot comment on that but Blender's learning curve is much higher than HitFilm's and the renders for smoke sims are quite long....


     

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,254 Ambassador
    I should point out that the explosion in the shuttle crash clip above uses two instances of Hitfilm's sci-fi shockwave preset (colored brown) for a dust shockwave, two modified instances of Hitfilm's Fire Explosion preset, and a slightly modified version of Hitfilm's Oil Fire preset. There are two copies of a stock footage explosion (a firepipe, actually) and one custom particle sim, which is all the smoke-trail debris.
    I think that explosion looks pretty good, and it wasn't THAT hard to build, since most of it is layering presets.
  • MultimediaexMultimediaex Website User Posts: 34
    So I have tried some rotoscoping, a lot of work but the result pleases me. This is not the final shot there is a lot of work more until finished but I wanted to show you the first result and I hope for criticism.
    http://youtu.be/irVFOkq-zWo

    @ Orange Pekoe
    You´re right with the blender learning curve it´s extremely high and not easy to learn because I think blender is realy not intuitive and I have tried a lot with blender until now. For 3DS I can´t say anything too, bcause I don´t have, it was only an example.
    @ Triem23
    Yes the explosion looks good, no question, but this is not what I want (for this moment). You´re surely right that the preset is not too difficult. I think in the future I have to showdown with the paricle simulator for mor interesting results.
  • MultimediaexMultimediaex Website User Posts: 34
    Thanks for answer. Also I want to do some color correction some destruction with blender a little bit more smoke and more atmosphere.
  • OrangePekoeOrangePekoe Website User Posts: 478
    Nice work!  So far it's turning out quite nicely!  I would also consider trying to add a bit of reflection onto the plane from both the surroundings and the explosion.
  • MultimediaexMultimediaex Website User Posts: 34
    Normaly I have reflection from the surroundings (clouds) about environment map but I scaled the material (specular refectivity) down because it looks a little bit to much. Or is this the wrong way for reflection? Another problem is Youtube, it scales the quality extremely down. But how can I make a reflection of the explosion on the aireplane? This is a cool idea.
  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,254 Ambassador
    edited March 2014
    Environment maps are the way to reflect surroundings in an object, yes. What you can try is copying your cloud layers to an embedded composite shot, and putting some blur on the copy, and maybe desaturate a bit. Then, use this embedded copy as an environment map. Try setting your model's diffuse/specular reflectivity to between 5-10%. This should give a hint of reflections from the clouds without being "too much."
    Reflection from the explosion is a bit trickier, and I am going to sidestep that for a moment... Instead, I am going to suggest parenting a point light to the explosion. Sample the fireball part of the explosion to give the point light the color of the fire and keyframe the intensity of the light so it starts at 0 and ramps up when the explosion happens. Maybe about intensity of 50. This way the explosion will throw more light on the plane, and help blend the elements together.
    (with the shuttle crash, I wasn't suggesting you needed my explosion, just noting that Hitfilm's Particle Simulator is capable of doing very nice explosions. Kaveh Robinett has also showcased some really nice particle explosions on his reels, but I haven't re-found the reel yet. It's something to think of for future projects, but, yeah, the plane explosion you're working on now is getting really good.)
    You did a good job on your roto. As you have learned, roto is tedious and annoying.
  • MultimediaexMultimediaex Website User Posts: 34
    With the animated light for the explosion is something I have thought about too. I made a setup this evening with nine lights for the explosion. Until now rendertime for this five secound over one hour. I´m anxious to the result. The problem are the 4 GB RAM of Hitfilm. All is extreme laggy and hard to work with.
    But it would be extremely cool if there would be a way to reflect the detailed explosion (animation) on the airplane itself. Perhaps anyone has an idea how to realise this.
  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,254 Ambassador
    Yeah, what Tooshka said. To expand a bit--the fuselage of the plane is going to be metal with a semi-gloss paint on it. it's not really a mirror surface, like glass, so having a detailed reflection of the explosion wouldn't be "realistic," anyway. (it's also why I suggested making a copy of your clouds, blurring, and using that as the environment wrap for the plane--you want a HINT of reflection, but not a detailed one.)
    Just getting the lighting rig to light up that plane like Xmas when the explosion happens should be enough to sell the shot.
    By the way, I really like your camera angle and motion path. The way the plane starts to dip of of shot as the explosion start to dissipate really feels right. But another issue with the explosion is that the edges of the fireball are very very clean at the moment. I'm thinking a touch of glow, light flare, or even light rays on the explosion will break up that clean edge a bit and add a little of that interactive light to really sell the effect. If you go with flares or light rays, you can parent the source/hotspot of the flares/light rays to the same movement point you're using for the plane, so the flare/rays should center on the explosion.
    This is already looking good, and I bet in a revision or two it's going to look **** near perfect! Good work!
  • MultimediaexMultimediaex Website User Posts: 34
    edited March 2014
    Thanks aggain. The light setup I made yesterday was too much for my pc and my configuration is, I think, not to low, CPU i7-3970X 3.5GHZ and GPU GeForce GTX 780 Ti. I think the problem has been the casting shadows of the light. I needed 2.5h to render for 5 secounds. Then I broke up. The light rays, glow and flares are a good idea. I'll give it a try and We see what comes out if it is ready.
  • MultimediaexMultimediaex Website User Posts: 34
    So, I made some changes. I worked out the lights of the explosion, I have made a litte shockwave at the moment of the explosion and added some rockets. Thats not the final but mutch better than the last one. With the edges of the fireball I tried differnt things but didn´t find the right way until now.
    http://youtu.be/2m6NQae7ah8
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