Sony VG-30 or Canon XA20???

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  • Ogemow
    Ogemow Website User Posts: 32
    [quote name="Triem23" post="40279" timestamp="1394667047"]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_shutter">http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_shutter
    Any camera that uses CMOS chips has the flash issue you bring up. This includes all DSLRs, the Blackmagic Cinema Camera, all smartphone and tablet cameras, and pretty much every video camera released after 2008.
    This is because of a phenomenon called "Rolling Shutter." I linked the Wikipedia entry for it above.
    The only way to avoid Rolling Shutter is to buy a camera that uses CCD chips instead of CMOS; and, basically you can't, anymore.[/quote]
    Cool, thanks for the info. Is there any way to minimize it?
  • Triem23
    Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 19,584 Ambassador
    Not really--it's inherent in the technology.
    To minimize the "Jell-O wobble" to have to just move your camera more slowly. This will actually help with a "filmic" look, as it's how film is shot.
    See, when shooting on film or in 24p, you can get a very strobic look, because of the jerky cadence of 24 fps footage. The ASC (American Society of Cinematographers) has a series of charts in their bible for recommended panning speeds at varied lengths. The quick and dirty rule is that the focal objects/focal plane of a shot should take at least 5 seconds to cross a frame in a pan or a movement. Anything faster than this risks strobing. This is pretty slow, but shooting this style will give you a more "filmic" look, since this is a basic rule of shooting film. Slower camera movements prevent skew and wobble from a CMOS rolling shutter.
    for "flash banding" (half a frame lit by flash), honestly, you either ignore it, or you fix it in post by tediously altering the affected frame with color correction, or just inserting a frame of solid white.
    This article has more information on CCD vs CMOS, although this article is a few years old--the marketplace has changed, with CMOS now dominating, but the background and tech information is still current.
    Minor point--there is no technical reason a CMOS sensor couldn't be made to be a "Global Shutter" like a CCD, but this would lower battery life and increase heat production. Since, even RED cameras are CMOS sensors and we know audiences will accept the look of CMOS skew, there's just no reason for sensor makers to impliment global shutter CMOS--although I wish they would.
  • MatthiasClaflin
    MatthiasClaflin Website User Posts: 674 Just Starting Out
    CMOS sensors are cheaper, higher definition sensors than CCD ever were. I don't really understand it all that well, but from what I understand, the CCD takes light, and moves it to the edge of the sensor to be processed and turned into a digital signal, where as a CMOS does it at the point of impact, I think. Anyway, there are global shutter CMOS sensors. Check out this http://nofilmschool.com/2013/09/red-goes-global-shutter-new-motion-mount-epicscarlet-plus-new-dragon-footage/">article. However I'm not sure if this is just an addition to a rolling shutter sensor, that makes it work like a global shutter sensor, or if it is actually a global shutter sensor. 
  • Triem23
    Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 19,584 Ambassador
    Nah,, it's true global, and I am glad to see it. The only reasons the lower end sensors are rolling shutters are to reduce power consumption and heat.
  • Ogemow
    Ogemow Website User Posts: 32
    [quote name="Matthias Claflin" post="40298" timestamp="1394746107"]CMOS sensors are cheaper, higher definition sensors than CCD ever were. I don't really understand it all that well, but from what I understand, the CCD takes light, and moves it to the edge of the sensor to be processed and turned into a digital signal, where as a CMOS does it at the point of impact, I think. Anyway, there are global shutter CMOS sensors. Check out this http://nofilmschool.com/2013/09/red-goes-global-shutter-new-motion-mount-epicscarlet-plus-new-dragon-footage/">article. However I'm not sure if this is just an addition to a rolling shutter sensor, that makes it work like a global shutter sensor, or if it is actually a global shutter sensor. [/quote]
    That is pretty sweet! If only companies could start putting them in all camcorders. But I don't think that will happen for a long time.
  • mark_e
    mark_e Website User Posts: 190 Just Starting Out
    edited March 2014
    Have a look at the GH4 coming out in May its in that price bracket and if it delivers it's going to be amazing.  I've got the GH3 which is really good but the GH4 is doing 4k uptp 200mbps 1080p 96fps at high bitrates, focus peaking has a breakout box for 4:2:2 10bit if you need that in the future, has more log style colour profiles, live curve adjustment for maximizing available dynamic range in tricky lighting conditions, you can pretty much put any lens you like on it as well as all the panasonic lenses etc. Panasonic basicay took all the feedback from where people had been hacking the GH1 and 2 and put it into the GH4, the GH3 was a bit of an inbetween stage I think just to get a camera out there but even that's awesome in the correct hands.
    I know it's not exactly what you were looking for but it might tick a few box's and it's out soon, I have money put aside ready, I think it's going to be quite disruptive when it hits and it's a brave move from panasonic as it's really going up against their dedicated pro line up.
    Mark
  • Ogemow
    Ogemow Website User Posts: 32
    [quote name="mark_e" post="40368" timestamp="1395059265"]Have a look at the GH4 coming out in May its in that price bracket and if it delivers it's going to be amazing.  I've got the GH3 which is really good but the GH4 is doing 4k uptp 200mbps 1080p 96fps at high bitrates, focus peaking has a breakout box for 4:2:2 10bit if you need that in the future, has more log style colour profiles, live curve adjustment for maximizing available dynamic range in tricky lighting conditions, you can pretty much put any lens you like on it as well as all the panasonic lenses etc. Panasonic basicay took all the feedback from where people had been hacking the GH1 and 2 and put it into the GH4, the GH3 was a bit of an inbetween stage I think just to get a camera out there but even that's awesome in the correct hands.
    I know it's not exactly what you were looking for but it might tick a few box's and it's out soon, I have money put aside ready, I think it's going to be quite disruptive when it hits and it's a brave move from panasonic as it's really going up against their dedicated pro line up.
    Mark[/quote]
    I looked it up. It really does take some very nice video and I like the fact that you can get the base for it that allows you to be able to hook up mics and control the audio level. I have really been wanting an actual video camera because I don't like the feel of a DLSR in my hand, they feel awkward when taking video. But a lot of people I talk to keep trying to talk me into going with a DLSR. I am starting to consider it, but I am going to wait until after NAB and see if someone comes out with something that is much better then what is available currently.
  • Triem23
    Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 19,584 Ambassador
    Just a reminder--the main disadvantage of DSLR video is short shooting times--if you're doing things where you're shooting takes UNDER about 12 min for 1080p, probably about 5 minutes for 4K, then a DSLR is a good option. If you're doing long-form shooting, where you need 30-90 minute continuous takes, the DSLR isn't what you want.
    Most DSLR shooters who go handheld end up spending money on rail rigs and follow focus devices to do it. Those are cool, but it's additional money.
    The GH4 is along the DSLR form factor, right? Don't get me wrong,  I'm looking at that with excitement as well. :-D
    It's good to see you taking the time to research and ask questions--I'm sure taking the time to make your choice means you'll end up with a good camera within your needs and budget.
  • mark_e
    mark_e Website User Posts: 190 Just Starting Out
    The GH3/4 is fine to record as long as your card will take at whatever resolution you like it's built to deal with the heat from the ground up, it's limited to 30 mins in the UK because of some bizarre tax law about video recorders from way back! but it's not a technical limitation and 30mins is a good amount of time for most things.
    It's DSLR form factor, I have a little mini rig I put together over time that was not that expensive, I'm particularly excited about my loupe now the GH4 will have focus peaking can dig out my old cannon FD lenses and have a play :-)  I think the GH4 has variable fps as well, anyway enough excitement I must stop thinking about it, the reality is it won't make me any better but I like to think it might ;-)
    photo_zps0fc57b73.jpg
  • Triem23
    Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 19,584 Ambassador
    Will the GH4 do 30 min at full res? I thought the cutoff was 29:59, or 4GB file, whichever comes first?
  • mark_e
    mark_e Website User Posts: 190 Just Starting Out
    I'm pretty sure you can go over 4 gig, I record at 50mbps IPB with the current GH3 as standard and that eats up space pretty quick, I must have gone over that limit filming concerts etc. I've def been keeping an eye before now on if I'm coming up to the 30 min limit recording at that level could be wrong but I don't think so.
  • Triem23
    Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 19,584 Ambassador
    Ok, good to know.
  • Ogemow
    Ogemow Website User Posts: 32
    [quote name="Triem23" post="40409" timestamp="1395131852"]Just a reminder--the main disadvantage of DSLR video is short shooting times--if you're doing things where you're shooting takes UNDER about 12 min for 1080p, probably about 5 minutes for 4K, then a DSLR is a good option. If you're doing long-form shooting, where you need 30-90 minute continuous takes, the DSLR isn't what you want.
    Most DSLR shooters who go handheld end up spending money on rail rigs and follow focus devices to do it. Those are cool, but it's additional money.
    The GH4 is along the DSLR form factor, right? Don't get me wrong,  I'm looking at that with excitement as well. :-D
    It's good to see you taking the time to research and ask questions--I'm sure taking the time to make your choice means you'll end up with a good camera within your needs and budget.[/quote]
    Yes, I did forget to mention that I also don't like the fact that DSLR's have limited recording time. I am taking my time, researching and asking questions because I do want to get the best that I can possibly can and when I first start looking at buying a video camera I quickly realized that I did not know nearly enough to make the best decision on which one to get...lol. But thanks to everyone here, I am starting to learn what I need to make an educated choice.
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