Can you PLEASE add support for HEVC H.265?

tosvus
tosvus Posts: 13

Having paid for the Pro version, I was really expecting to be able to work with various video file formats/codecs. This is used for the 6K "photo mode" on the Panasonic G9/GH5. Of note, while it is useful to extract frames for photos, that is somewhat bypassable by using the FREE potplayer (why free software can do this, but paid can't is beyond me - can't be licensing costs then?). However, turns out I can record in 3:2 aspect ratio which is not half bad widescreen, and it does record sound, so this is a poor-mans "much higher than 4K" video recorder. I really think HitFilm Pro should embrace this, as it seems right in spirit with the whole indie feel I get from the company and its users.

Comments

  • Andersen01498
    Andersen01498 Posts: 1,005 Enthusiast

    @tosvus please put this on the wishlist item thread  

  • tosvus
    tosvus Posts: 13

    Thanks, I will do that.

  • Triem23
    Triem23 Posts: 20,072 Ambassador

    @Andersen01498 it's not going to happen anytime soon. It absolutely is licensing costs. HEVC license fees are pretty high for commercial software (open source can often get away without license fees, and some open source/freeware software uses "hacked" unlicensed codecs.

    I forget exactly which live 2018 stream discussed this, but it's right from Josh's mouth. It could change  but I'm not expecting it  

    Additionally, and this is more for @tosvus, long story short  the more video is compressed  the more resources it takes to decode, and the slower it will perform in Hitfilm.

    This video discusses how video codecs work and discusses why "delivery" codecs like HEVC are worse-performing than "editing" codecs like ProRes and Cineform (along with optimal mp4 settings and demo of several transcoders). HEVC performance in Hitfilm would likely lag badly and we'd end up encouraging transcoding anyway.

    I'll tag @NormanPCN just to see if he wants to elaborate. 

  • NormanPCN
    NormanPCN Posts: 4,082 Enthusiast

    Yes license fees are ugly in HEVC (H.265). As for HEVC patent royalty fees AFAIK there are multiple patent pool groups claiming rights. At least two and maybe three. You have to pay each. You pay multiple times for a single install. This is unlike the single patent pool on AVC. If Hitfilm uses Mainconcept as a supplier for HEVC then you have to pay them for their libraries. libavcodec could avoid this particular piece. I don't know how hardware (GPU) decoders fit into the patent fees.

    Finally the real reason you don't want to edit HEVC is because you machine is very unlikely to edit it smoothly. Most users on this forum do not have the power to edit AVC smoothly unless the AVC was encoded in a fast decode setting. HEVC has more overhead than AVC and fast decode settings are not a possibility in HEVC. Hardware decode is really a requirement for HEVC edit. Then it can work but the patent fees are possibly still there.

  • DannyDev
    DannyDev Staff Posts: 337 Staff

    @tosvus

    As Norman has explained this is purely a licensing issue and we won't be adding support unless that changes.

    Some NLEs dodge the issue either by being free or by flat out ignoring the license, which is illegal.

  • tosvus
    tosvus Posts: 13

     Thanks, why not add it as a purchaseable "plugin"? So my best option is to find *Some* software that can convert it to a non-lossy format (which?) and work with 100s of GB sized files then? I get the processing speed is better on those (though harddrives might have an issue keeping up pushing non compressed/non lossy 6K footage...). 

    What would be the recommended work flow and formats? I clearly don't want to use a tool to convert to h264 as it will just add one more round of quality loss.

  • NormanPCN
    NormanPCN Posts: 4,082 Enthusiast

    @tosvus Don't worry about transcoding to another lossy format. Any loss is never visible with proper settings. For example with intermediate formats like Cineform (High) and Prores (Std) their standard quality setting is designed to to hold up across multiple generations of re-encoding. As for transcoding to something like AVC,  then you simply have to use a quality setting high enough to stop the loss to a level similar to intermediates like Cineform and Prores. With AVC you lose the ability to preserve 422 video if that is how your source was encoded.

    "So my best option is to find *Some* software that can convert it to a non-lossy format ..."

    You have been given, in this thread, a reference to transcoding operations. The video done by @Triem23.

    That video has in its description links to various forum threads on transcoding. Cineform is the common recommendation on this forum and VirtualDub is the goto option here. In fact Cineform Medium is commonly suggested. It might be a tad low but with common off the shelf cameras its quality is right there. This ain't no pro camera with capture at crazy bitrates.

    Here is a direct link to the VirtualDub transcode thread. It has been around for a while so later information may be more current than old posts in the thread.

    https://fxhome.com/forum/discussion/42015/how-to-use-virtualdub-filtermod-to-fix-vfr-issues-and-convert-to-cineform#latest

  • DannyDev
    DannyDev Staff Posts: 337 Staff
    edited January 2019

    @tosvus

    "Thanks, why not add it as a purchaseable "plugin"? So my best option is to find *Some* software that can convert it to a non-lossy format (which?) and work with 100s of GB sized files then?"

    This is exactly what we did for the MPEG-2 media import. 

    Licensing costs prevented us from bundling support for this format (and Dolby AC-3 audio) with HitFilm Express for free. So instead they're available as part of the Formats: Starter pack.

    However the cost for licensing H.265 is astronomical and would require many users to buy the pack for it to be economical for us.

  • WhiteCranePhoto
    WhiteCranePhoto Posts: 924 Enthusiast

    It's a great codec, but the pricing is asinine.

     

  • tosvus
    tosvus Posts: 13

    NormanPCN and  @Triem23 for pointing me to the best options and  @DannyDev for the perspective. Too bad the pricing is crazy like @WhiteCranePhoto says too...

  • Aladdin4d
    Aladdin4d Posts: 2,481 Enthusiast

    HEVC is going to end up being  a case study on how not to do things. Three patent pools plus over a dozen undeclared patent holders using patent holdup to extract more money from the consumer and per unit pricing starting  10 times higher than AVC equals disaster. Even the chairman and co-founder of the Motion Pictures Experts Group, Leonardo Chiariglione, says HEVC and the MPEG business model is broken and the Alliance for Open Media and their royalty free AV1 codec will take over.

  • Triem23
    Triem23 Posts: 20,072 Ambassador

    @Aladdin4d to add more into the HEVC mess (I actually wrote about this in the Wishlist earlier tonight):

    Besides the three patent pools. Besides the higher rates. The HEVC royalty rates are different in Region 1 (USA ) and Region 2 (Europe).  Not as big a deal for TV/camera makers who aren't going to sell 50HZ European TVs in the USA, but.... 

    ...It's a pickle for a company like FXHOME selling to both markets.

    HEVC isn't gonna happen for Hitfilm.

  • WhiteCranePhoto
    WhiteCranePhoto Posts: 924 Enthusiast

    Anyone heard of Rambus?

    Well, hevc is probably going to be the new Rambus...

  • Aladdin4d
    Aladdin4d Posts: 2,481 Enthusiast

    To paraphrase an old quote about IBM, “If HEVC was sushi, it would be marketed it as Raw Dead Fish.” 

  • Triem23
    Triem23 Posts: 20,072 Ambassador

    @Aladdin4d at least HEVC will die because of silly greed and not because the owner of the codec has decided to abandon it (Cineform) or because Apple has decided to drop all support for it (Cineform, DNxHD, legacy formats like DV, HDSR, and others).

    So glad I'm not an Avid editor on Mac since Apple just kind of told Avid to "sit & spin."

  • WhiteCranePhoto
    WhiteCranePhoto Posts: 924 Enthusiast

    Which will just cause Mac based Avid editors to migrate to better systems ?

    That was hard to resist ?

  • Triem23
    Triem23 Posts: 20,072 Ambassador

    @WhiteCranePhoto my wife said the same thing. ??

  • NormanPCN
    NormanPCN Posts: 4,082 Enthusiast

    Avid does need to care if Apple drops support for installable codecs. Avid just needs to implement the codec native. e.g. Like Hitfilm does for AVC, MPEG-4 ASP, MPEG-2, DV, Cineform and Prores (decode only). 

    VP9 exists and Google uses the heck out of it with Youtube and all. I don't know if there are patent fights regarding VP9. I know AV1 is coming but VP9 is now and GPU hardware currently support VP9 decode. VP9 is supposedly similar'ish in compression capability to HEVC. Yes/No? If there are no patent fights, then VP9 is right here and right now. But people, cameras, are going HEVC.

     

  • WhiteCranePhoto
    WhiteCranePhoto Posts: 924 Enthusiast

    I don't know the patent and licensing situation with VP9 either... we can only hope that it does get adopted enough to push the consortium behind HEVC to address the problems with its licensing, or just get pushed a side.

  • NormanPCN
    NormanPCN Posts: 4,082 Enthusiast

    VP9 is royalty free.

    I know that some others were claiming VPx infringed on some patents. This the patent fights I mentioned.

    FWIW, I just looked at the wiki and it has something like this...

    "In March 2013, the MPEG Licensing Administration dropped an announced assertion of disputed patent claims against VP8 and its successors after the United States Department of Justice started to investigate whether it was acting to unfairly stifle competition."

    So maybe some are no longer trying to kill VP9 via patent claims. 

    For whatever reason there is more hardware encode/decode support for HEVC, which is sad.

  • VRLord
    VRLord Posts: 1
    edited February 2019

    Hey Guys I just spend my dolars to get hitfilm and there is no HEVC ?  I can't import anything form  GoPro7.

    Did they giving any alternative solution for this conversion tool or similar stuff? any info? 

    Thanks for help.

  • NormanPCN
    NormanPCN Posts: 4,082 Enthusiast
    edited February 2019

    This thread already discussed that you need to transcode to another format. Also, that the HEVC format will not edit worth a damn performance wise. A video on transcoding was referenced and a forum thread on using VirtualDub was referenced (for transcode to something else).

  • WhiteCranePhoto
    WhiteCranePhoto Posts: 924 Enthusiast

    Yeah, HEVC is almost as compute heavy as Redcode... not at all ideal.

     

This discussion has been closed.