How will Apple dropping OpenGL affect Mac users of HitFilm?

CleverTaglineCleverTagline ModeratorLas Vegas, NVModerator, Website User, Ambassador, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 3,036 Ambassador
edited June 2018 in General

I didn't watch Apple's WWDC presentation, but saw a comment on Twitter from Blender's top dog, Ton Roosendaal, that the newest OS update will mark the start of Apple's official move away from OpenGL as they push/encourage developers to support Metal instead.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12894/apple-deprecates-opengl-across-all-oses

"Listed in the developer release notes for both iOS and macOS, Apple is deprecating support for what are now their legacy graphics and compute APIs: OpenGL, OpenGL ES, and OpenCL. Instead, Apple is strongly encouraging developers to use their proprietary Metal API, which has been available for a few years now."

How will this impact HitFilm's future on the Mac?

Comments

  • GrayMotionGrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,368 Enthusiast
    edited June 2018

    Apple has been sending signals for a few years now that they are dropping openCL/GL Hell, I see that the OpenGL on my iMac is 5 full version behind. I imagine if FxHome cannot afford to support two graphics API's that my days of using HF on the Mac may be numbered once I upgrade the OS above 10.14


  • DannyDevDannyDev Staff Administrator, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 338 Staff
    edited June 2018

    This announcement wasn't a surprise. Apple effectively abandoned both technologies years ago.

    To clarify, deprecating a technology does not mean dropping support for that technology. Apple have simply stated that they won't be putting anymore effort into these technologies, which has been the de facto state of affairs for many years now.

    HF doesn't use OpenCL. As for OpenGL, I doubt it will stop working on OSX any time soon and if it does, it will make Macs unusable by a vast collection of software including all of Adobe's products, AutoDesk Maya, 3D Studio Max, Blender and many more not to mention virtually every game to be ported to the platform.

    Apple would be very foolish to remove support for OpenGL.

  • GrayMotionGrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,368 Enthusiast
    edited June 2018

    Autodesk 3DS Studio already supports Metal and I lay money down that the rest of the big players will to.

    https://help.autodesk.com/view/3DSMAX/2018/ENU/?guid=__interactive_help_reference_platform_support_html

    And I believe Adobe products already support Metal as well.

    Believe me..I've owned a Mac for 18 year. They can change and WILL change. Trust me. My iMac has already thrown optimization warning dialog boxes up for some apps have have installed...including Hitfilm Pro 3. 

    So from your statement... it is unclear.... does the  FX Home team have  plans to support Mac's  when the change to Mojave (10.14) happens?

  • CleverTaglineCleverTagline Moderator Las Vegas, NVModerator, Website User, Ambassador, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 3,036 Ambassador

    @GrayMotion I don't get the impression that Apple is immediately dropping OpenGL with Mojave.  It's just moving to "deprecated" status.  It'll still be there so that software written for it won't flat-out fail, but Metal will be preferred, and developers will be even more strongly encouraged to make the move to Metal.  I don't doubt that they'll eventually drop OpenGL, but I don't believe that they've stated when that will happen.

  • GrayMotionGrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,368 Enthusiast
    edited June 2018

    They never tell you when @jsbarrett   They just do....... and you are right...they didn't say when...but remember openGL support for the Mac has been in deprecated status since openGL version 4.1. Current version of openGL is what...4.6?

    I enjoy Hitfilm...and I've dropped some big money ( 4 versions) on the HF software since 2015 and planned to continue with FXHome but it would be a darn bummer not to be able to use my Mac with Hitfilm too. Now I can elect not to upgrade my OS but why would I do that? Every piece of Apple software I own are lifetime updates.

    I'll be watching  :-)

     

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,262 Ambassador

    Apple **** well might drop OpenGl relatively soon. Not bashing Apple, but their corporate standard is to introduce something propriety, develop it until its optimized and mature, deprecate the older (not Apple owned) standard, then drop the old standard. We won't even get into hardware... Yes we will: Apple was the first to drop floppies, optical drives, and headphone jacks. Haven't they phased out USB for Lightning? 

    FXHOME needs to at least start a plan for Apple dropping OpenGl, because I really think they will within five years. 

  • DannyDevDannyDev Staff Administrator, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 338 Staff

    @Triem23

    "Apple was the first to drop floppies, optical drives, and headphone jacks. Haven't they phased out USB for Lightning? "

    Those were all physical components with a significant manufacturing and design cost. The head phone jack is debatable but apple was right to drop floppy drives (!), optical drives, ADB, SCSI and the rest of it.

    Software is different. It costs Apple nothing to leave the OpenGL drivers as they are. They just won't be working on them anymore. It's like QuickTime on Windows, which Apple abandoned years ago. It sucks but it still works.

    I suspect Apple will make a far more significant change to their desktop line within the next few years which will render this mute. In particular I think they will move to ARM processors and a new unified OS with an entirely new interface.

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,262 Ambassador

    @DannyDev I prefer the world where you're correct. :) 

  • DannyDevDannyDev Staff Administrator, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 338 Staff
    edited June 2018

    The point I'm trying to make is not to panic.

    Apple effectively deprecated OpenGL years ago. The last version OSX supports is 4.1 which was standardised in 2010 and it still works after all these years. All they've done is confirm this.

    OSX itself is stagnating to say nothing of their desktop hardware.

    If history is any guide, they're probably working on something BIG; I wouldn't be at all surprised if Apple just stopped making Macs to concentrate on their mobile platform. Sometimes I feel that being a requirement for iOS development is the only thing that keeps the platform viable.

  • Aladdin4dAladdin4d Moderator Website User, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,509 Enthusiast

    The things Apple does or doesn't do wouldn't bother me as much if the products were really the premium quality Apple marketing makes them out to be. iPhone 4 antenna problems? That's not a design flaw, you're an idiot for holding the phone wrong.

    The "beautiful and sturdy" iPhone 6 featuring a precision engineered unibody enclosure constructed from machining a custom grade of 6000 series tempered anodized aluminum reinforced with stainless steel and titanium inserts won't bend under normal use. You're abusing the phone. Even though we knew bending would be a problem before we ever released the phone. Don't mind us while we underfill this connection with epoxy to try and keep the phone working until we can con you into another upgrade. Meanwhile I can bounce my cheap Moto G of the pavement a half a dozen times and not even get a scratch.

    Check out the "beautiful and sturdy" unibody of the new Mac Book! Except it isn't a unibody. It's actually glued together and we made sure to route all the waste heat to flow right on the single most important glue joint. Just remember, when the glue joint fails and the screen collapses, it's not a design flaw, you were abusing your laptop by actually deigning to use it. While we're at it we're going to use a proprietary SATA cable to connect a drive because that's better than using a standard hard connection like everybody else. 30% percent of the cables are going to fail but do we really have to go over this again? Stop abusing your precision device. The cable arrangement is perfectly robust. Just ignore us when we "fix" this issue by soldering SSDs straight onto the motherboard. 

    If you ever need support, just make a reservation with your nearest Genius Bar where our highly trained experts will carefully explain how our products are perfect and any problems you are experiencing are entirely your fault. Remember, if you let anybody else attempt to service one of our premium products, Apple will refuse to provide future service. 

     

  • GrayMotionGrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,368 Enthusiast

    Um...Not to be a debate about choices of machines @Aladdin4d I'll just say ......Microsoft OS. Piece-o-crap and always has been :-)





  • NormanPCNNormanPCN Website User Posts: 3,945 Enthusiast

    @Aladdin4d Well said.

    Mac, Windows, I don't really give a flip. I just won't pay for the Apple/Mac premium. The thing that has always amazed me is the pass that Apple gets from it's community (err, cult members. yeah, I said that ) for its issues.

    Regarding this topic. Apple has no issue breaking compatibility from one OS version to the next. For example the Carbon API does not exist anymore, AFAIK. So Apple has no issue forcing people to rewrite their apps. But hey, it's for our own good, right(?).

    OpenGL, OpenCL, Vulkan. These things really have nothing to do with the OS. So why is Apple interested in dumping them. Yes, they do need to talk with a video card device driver. But really, even a device driver is not a part of the OS. It's a plug-in of sorts to use a video editor metaphor. The only "OS" thing is the device driver interface. That can and does often change or is extended. Windows or Mac. Possible pain for driver developers. Apple controls device driver distribution but for major things like video cards, the hardware vendor is surely the actual developer of the driver.

    OpenCL is not an API. It is really just a programming language who's execution targets GPUs. It's not video, not 3D, not anything specific really. It can compile to a CPU but why would one do that. The interesting thing is that Apple was the original proponent of OpenCL not long ago. How times have changed. Apple does not "control" OpenCL so maybe that is a/the problem.

    OpenGL is an API and a programming language  in the case of the shaders. The reality of OpenGL in the current world is that it is a wrapper to the GPUs. It's not really a thing, that a GPU driver then plugs itself into to "accelerate". It can be, but that is usually less efficient. The implementation of such is purely the work of the GPU device driver developer. This is AMD or Nvidia in our current world. So like on Windows. What version of OpneGL does Windows support. Windows, the OS, does not care a flip about OpenGL. It is just a DLL someone, like Nvidia, installs. What version does it support. That is up to Nvidia/AMD. Again the OS does not care what, or if it does or does not even exist.

    Vulkan is just a low level 3D drawing API. It does less things for you than OpenGL. Like above it is not really a part of the OS. 

    All these things are no burden on maintaining an OS. Apples thing is just political. IMO of course.

    Someone so inclined could write an "OpenGL" that used Metal underneath. Heck, AMD/Nvidia could supply OpenGL for Mac OS. They do for Windows. But Apple controls device drivers and such an implementation would likely want to be hooked in at that level for at least some functions. You could still do it but performance might suck.

  • Aladdin4dAladdin4d Moderator Website User, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,509 Enthusiast

    @GrayMotion An OS isn't hardware and I didn't make any comments about a given OS. In general Apple hardware = pure garbage for the money with serious flaws that you won't find on even the cheapest Windows laptop or average Android phone from Wal Mart. A SATA cable failure would be forgivable, maybe even expected, on a $250.00 laptop but is completely unacceptable on a $2500.00 laptop. Unless it's a Mac. Then it's acceptable for multiple generations of laptops and obviously the fault of the customer. Deny there's a problem and keep denying it until a class action suit is imminent, then quietly issue a recall. It's inexcusable flaw after inexcusable flaw. Think Different Indeed.

    What if your spiffy new $5000.00  iMac Pro suffers accidental damage? Can you get it fixed? Not bloody likely.

    True to form, Apple and Apple fans blame Linus for expecting too much and/or not understanding how the repair process works. Apple Insider even went so far as to imply Linus Tech Tips did it all on purpose for "generating revenue and having a laugh". Not understanding the repair process? Seriously!?!?!? It's broke, I know I broke it and I'm willing to pay for the repair. The only acceptable responses from a company repair center are "Yes Sir!" and "It's fixed!". Did LTT break it in a stupid way? Sure, but that's how most accidental damage occurs, stupidly. What if that iMac Pro had been on location and someone bumped into the table it was setting on too hard knocking it to the floor? I'll tell you what, you're out 5 grand because a company I work with just had the exact same experience with Apple after their iMac got knocked off the tech riser by accident. Now it's being used as an actual doorstop at their warehouse. Linus wasn't skewing anything to generate revenue or a laugh. Unacceptable behavior from a company marketing an allegedly premium product to the professional market. 

     

     

  • WhiteCranePhotoWhiteCranePhoto Website User Posts: 896 Enthusiast

    @DannyDev That is precisely what deprecating means. Apple has a track record for dropping things like that quickly; no one would be sane enough to consider building anything using OpenGL or OpenCL for the mac now. They'll just get the rug yanked out from under them -- Apple did precisely that with Cocoa, because Apple doesn't and never has cared about its users.

    My guess is that the "something big" is going to be a wholesale switch to the ARM platform, which will alienate the entire workstation and gaming markets (which aren't very big for Apple any more anyway, since the pros have been moving to faster hardware that Apple hasn't been offering). The trashcan macpro turned out to be a colossal failure both in terms of performance and of reliability; the production house that created the opening titles sequence for Deadpool got tired of buying spares after burning out 14 of them, and now is a 100% HP shop.

    If Apple DOES launch an entire line of ARM based workstations, you can pretty much bet that it will be 90% designed for iOS development and largely unsuitable for any serious content creation work. If anyone believes that Apple will be able to offer performance competitive with x86 while Intel has the AMD fire under its booty, they're in for a rude awakening.

     

  • CleverTaglineCleverTagline Moderator Las Vegas, NVModerator, Website User, Ambassador, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 3,036 Ambassador

    I really didn't expect (or hope) for this thread to turn into an Apple bashing session.  :(

    It's unfortunate that some have had bad experiences with the Mac platform, but that doesn't apply to everyone.  My experience since switching from Windows to Mac about 10 years ago has been quite good overall.  I'm no power user by any stretch, so my expectations are relatively simple, and the Macs I've owned have generally met those better than my former Windows systems.  That said, I'm not an Apple zealot.  If things start truly tanking, I won't hesitate to jump ship.  For the moment, though, things are working well, so I'm sticking with the old adage: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  (Coupled with my own adage: I'm broke, so I can't afford to fix it if I wanted to...)

  • GrayMotionGrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,368 Enthusiast
    edited June 2018

    I'm with you @jsbarrett - I was a taken back by the Apple bashing and figured better just to say nothing. I figured the heat must be getting to folks and didn't want to increase the fire. I for one have had zero problems with my Macs over the years and while I do own PC's I prefer my Macs because of the ZERO problems I have encounter with the hardware and OS over the years. I thought your original question was a good one and the answer seems??? to be that FXHome doesn't plan on doing anything when and if Apple does follow through and drop openGL. 

  • Aladdin4dAladdin4d Moderator Website User, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,509 Enthusiast
    edited June 2018

    @jsbarrett and @GrayMotion I'm not knocking the OS or the users, just the hardware and the way Apple treats customers having hardware issues particularly when the issue is because of an engineering flaw.

    Between the companies I work with the most now, there are over 300 rental Windows laptops and 20 rental MacBooks. One company responsible for roughly half of the Windows laptops always buys 30-40 new laptops per year but never pays more than $600.00 per unit. The laptops are used for front line service for 5 years. After 5 years, they aren't retired but get relegated to secondary stuff like digital signage until they just aren't usable anymore or get stolen. The other company buys nothing but used/off lease HP Elitebooks never paying more than $300.00 a unit and uses them for everything until they aren't usable anymore or get stolen. On average this works out to be 3 years of use.

    The Windows laptops get abused. They get shipped everywhere or bounce around in the back of a truck going from event to event, get dropped off docks, knocked off tabletops, slammed shut, stepped on etc etc. You name it, it's happened and there are definitely failures and accidental damage that happens. The amazing thing is, the failure rate for both companies is less than 10% over a 15 year span. The company that buys new, gets warranty service no questions asked even though the supplier knows they are being used for commercial rentals. Both Lenovo and HP will fix any accidental damage as long as you're willing to pay. That doesn't happen very often because it usually falls to me to handle accidental damage and out of warranty repairs. 

    The MacBooks for both companies are an entirely different story. One they are obviously much much more expensive. Two, they get handled with kid gloves. They're packed in extreme cases and always ride up front from event to event so they don't get mishandled like the Windows laptops. Whenever possible they're never left unattended unless locked away safe somewhere for the night. Rarely are they ever just turned over to a client. There's almost always a tech available to monitor and assist. Even with that, accidental damage can still happen, see my earlier post. On the plus side, this all cuts down on theft. Three, they're on a two year cycle. Every two years new MacBooks are purchased and the old ones sold on Ebay. The failure rate over the same 15 year span is over 30% for truly idiotic things like a bad SATA cables or the room temperature was too cool. Yes, you read that right. I've had 17" MacBooks (yes plural) have backlights fail to start because the room was too cool. Raise the temp to 80 degrees or higher or hit the right spot with a hair dryer and they would start. MacBooks have to be purchased by employees as individuals because if Apple suspects they are being used for commercial rentals, they refuse to honor any warranty or AppleCare service contract. Getting any accidental damage fixed is a crap shoot. Apple might sully itself by fixing a damaged laptop here and there but they are just as likely to refuse in my own experience. If you want to try and do it yourself, parts are notoriously difficult to source and if you order from overseas, there's a 50/50 chance customs will seize the parts as being 'counterfeit'. 

    I'm glad to hear your personal experiences have been much better but I can only be burned by bad hardware and bad company support so many times on the job before the hardware gets blacklisted. Unfortunately Apple hardware can't be blacklisted completely but I can make sure the fail safe back up for it is a bulletproof Lenovo E560 Hackintosh. 

  • DannyDevDannyDev Staff Administrator, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 338 Staff
    edited June 2018

    @WhiteCranePhoto

    "That is precisely what deprecating means"

    We'll have to agree to disagree. Apple 'deprecated' the Carbon framework years and years ago. We still use it for specific things, as do many other products, because there's not a 1:1 mapping between Carbon C APIs and Cocoa Objective-C APIs (think of Win32 and .Net). And when you build a product in C++, you can't just 'call into' Swift APIs because they happen to be today's 'cool thing'.

    "Apple did precisely that with Cocoa, because Apple doesn't and never has cared about its users"

    Sorry what? Cocoa (the framework) is very much alive and at the core of OSX as is it's cousin Cocoa Touch. Apple did sort of deprecate Objective-C in favour of Swift but Objective-C is still around and will remain relevant unless Apple decide to rewrite three decades of software, going back to NeXT Step, simply because.

    "They'll just get the rug yanked out from under them"

    They only case this actually happened, with software, when was Apple announced they were porting Carbon to 64bit only to abandon the effort a year later, after many big players such as Adobe had switched to it. That's why it took so long for 64bit versions of many venerable Mac apps to appear.

    I suppose you could include the ability to run PPC apps on Intel Macs with Rosetta, which Apple yanked out after a few releases but the writing was on the wall for PPC anyway.

    For the most part, Apple have been pretty good in ensuring older software continues to work. Unless they may a deliberate, spiteful effort to kill OpenGL/OpenCL, I don't see any reason to panic.

  • WhiteCranePhotoWhiteCranePhoto Website User Posts: 896 Enthusiast

    @DannyDev The reason for putting "deprecated" tags on APIs is to warn API users off of them, because it means that there's no guarantee that they'll persist. And since Apple hasn't even been bothering to keep OpenGL up to date on its systems...

    Clearly I got the library names wrong (again, I get the mixed up)... and the reason that companies switched to Carbon for 64-bit is they were following Apple's guidance. 

  • DannyDevDannyDev Staff Administrator, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 338 Staff

    @WhiteCranePhoto

    " because it means that there's no guarantee that they'll persist"

    There's no guarantee that anything will persist for more a few years in the modern industry. I can imagine a lot of iOS Objective C developers with existing apps were upset when Apple announced Swift. The situation on the Windows side is far worse. In the Windows 8 era, they announced the death of 'native apps' in favor of metro. Now they've backed off that and appear to be embracing .net again.

    "and the reason that companies switched to Carbon for 64-bit is they were following Apple's guidance. "

    Yes it was a major pain not least because switching to Cocoa entailed using an entirely different language. My point is that the 64bit carbon debacle doesn't compare; the only devs using Carbon were Mac devs porting old apps. OpenGL is an industry standard and it's not going away just because Apple says so.

     

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 18,262 Ambassador

    @DannyDev raises a good point with: OpenGL is an industry standard and it's not going away just because Apple says so.

    Apple basically tried to kill off its own Quicktime standard, but really can't (yet) because camera manufacturers keep making gear that records to that zombie format.

    But to speculate, I only recently learned Visionlab was built around a Macromedia core (Shockwave/Flash?) which is now dead. Presumably if OpenGl dies, FXHOME will build something around a new kernal, but said product would be the successor of Hitfilm. 

Sign In or Register to comment.