Using 3d Object with Particle Sim and HDR Environment map

aknittel
aknittel Website User Posts: 110

I have everything working except one issue I have been trying to solve for hours. The environment map lighting only affects the first frame of the composite shot. How do I extend its affect over every frame in the shot?

I've seen Javer's bi-plane tutorial and it doesn't seem to happen there.

 

I'm using the latest version of HitFilm Pro.

Comments

  • aknittel
    aknittel Website User Posts: 110

    Anyone? I'm stuck.

  • GrayMotion
    GrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,568 Enthusiast
    edited May 2018

    I'll take a shot at this....when you say "environment map lighting" you are talking about using the effect "360 Viewer (layer only)" yes?

    The clip (image) has to be as long as your comp shot.

  • aknittel
    aknittel Website User Posts: 110

    Nope. The function I'm talking about is specifying an HDR file for property "environment map...material...use layer" and "Material...Layer" in an imported OBJ file layer. I expect that the model which is lit fine by the HDR file imported to the layer will affect all frames in the particle sim layer that is using the OBJ file. It only affects the first frame.

  • Triem23
    Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 19,564 Ambassador

    @aknittel @graymotion I'm stuck too.

    I didn't use an HDR file for the map, "just" at 16-bit TIFF, as described. I brought in a simple cube object, gave it a ton of specular reflection and turned the actual environment layer off. My particle sim was a simple cube emitter with grid turned on and randomized rotation so I just had a bunch of reflective cubes turning in space. My environment map does extend the full length of the shot and I did jump around to different frames and rotate my original cube just to make sure it was getting reflections across every frame. Yup.

    Like aknittel I'm only getting reflections on the first frame. I went into the texture settings in particle appearance>Source>Layer and toggled between "single" frame and "Animated" thinking that might be the issue - and a simple fix. No luck, still only getting reflections on frame 1.

    Tagging @Ady twice in one day! Can't always let Cedric and Danny have all the "fun."

    Ady, as stated in another post I've currently removed all pre v8 Hitfilms from my system or I'd have checked this in Pro 3, 4 and 2017.

  • GrayMotion
    GrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,568 Enthusiast
    edited May 2018

    I checked in Pro 3, 4 and 2017 and the results are the same. No environment lighting with the particles. In Pro 4, 2017 and v8 the action is the same. Environmental lighting on the first frame only. Pro 3 had no lighting at all.

    I was able to get the environment map to light the models in the particle sim but only by cranking up the Refraction Amount in the model properties to something like 5. The environment does light the model then....but in a more reflective manner....but it does help

  • aknittel
    aknittel Website User Posts: 110

    Wow, guys, I feel good I have the most experienced guys finding the same issue!

    I'll try refraction amount. That didn't seem intuitive to me, but could help the Devs find the issue.

    I did log this in questions and Axel picked it up. Just wanted some other evidence and to confirm my expectations weren't out of whack.

  • aknittel
    aknittel Website User Posts: 110

    Nope, refraction amount only increases the lighting in the FIRST FRAME.

  • GrayMotion
    GrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,568 Enthusiast
    edited June 2018

    Yep. I see that.My bad...musta been confused....

    I did discover that if you leave the background HDR plate visible then  Use Composite Shot the environment lighting works  throughout the entire timeline as anticipated. Selecting the Use Layer option only last for 1 frame.

    Edit: It also appears that the particle system has to be unrolled for environment to have an effect. Must be a bug?

    https://youtu.be/Cvk5P9yf3JA

  • Triem23
    Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 19,564 Ambassador

    @GrayMotion I don't remember if I checked 3D Unrolled, but, in that case it might not be a "bug" so much as behavioral related to the render order. 

    Short form: at some point Hitfilm has to collapse all 3D layers, model layers and particle systems to a 2D render.

    A 2D model layer is calculated, immediately rendered, then passed to the Effects block (which works on 2D renders). This is why effects can be added to a 2D model layer - it's a "drawing" on a "sheet of paper," like a plane. Same with 2D particle layers. 

    3D Unrolled layers are calculated, but do not render until Hitfilm hits a 2D plane/video/photo/grade layer, at which point all 3D layers are summed and rendered. This is why 3D Unrolled models and particles occlude correctly, but can't have effects added to the layer. This is also why lights above a grade don't affect models below the grade. As layers render bottom to top the grade forces the model to render before the light above is calculated. 

    So, if Environment Maps are working correctly in 3D Unrolled particle sims it might tie into render pipeline order? If nothing else it's a useful datum for the devs. 

  • aknittel
    aknittel Website User Posts: 110
    edited June 2018

    In your video example, you have an extra "composite shot" HDR. I;m not getting how when you choose a composite shot instead of a layer for the fbx model, how you're choosing that "composite shot". There's no name to choose in the properties.

    With you method im not getting any lighting.D:\Data\Junk (see image)

    https://1drv.ms/u/s!AtCAJBoxlRBgm7li4mQdwkDaW0aW_Q

  • aknittel
    aknittel Website User Posts: 110

    I might be confused. Are you suggesting that your method in the video may be a workaround for 3d model layers?

  • GrayMotion
    GrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,568 Enthusiast
    edited June 2018

    I'm sorry. I can see how that is confusing. I have two backgrounds in the project. They are the same image except one of them I turned into a comp itself. I was experimenting and just forgot to clean up my example. Sorry about that.

    When you select "Composite Shot" under Material: Environment Map of the model you are selecting the entire contents of the comp shot you are currently working in and not just an individual layer (image).

    The end result of the test seems to be that the background layer  aka - "environment map" cannot be turned off and the particle system has to be un-rolled in order for the environment map to effect the lighting of the model/particle system  throughout the entire scene.

    See Triem23's comments above for a logical approach to why this is.






  • aknittel
    aknittel Website User Posts: 110
    edited June 2018

    Absolutely works if you unroll the 3d particle system as GrayMotion demonstrated, and use composite.

    I'll alert Axel in my private question.

    Don't know what the downside is of this workaround.

  • Triem23
    Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 19,564 Ambassador

    The downside is, "This is why 3D Unrolled models and particles occlude correctly, but can't have effects added to the layer."

    If you don't need to assign additional effects to the particle layer, no downside, but it does mean all grading has to done on grade layers.

    Still, one you give that data to Axel he'll pass it to the devs. I suggest you copy @GrayMotion's prior post to Axel. He gave a perfect description of the steps he took that will make sense to all the FXHOME Staff. 

    Another caveat is using the Comp Shot itself as the environment map means that the current frame itself is the map. You're actually wrapping what's BEHIND the particles to the front. Depending on what the Environment Map is this might not be noticeable. 

    But, since the Environment Map is calculated from the Composite, it implies a future patch could fix the problem with Environment Layers... Knock wood.

    Nice testing, Greg. 

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