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  • spydurhank
    spydurhank Posts: 3,193 Expert
    Right on Simon... I'll get started on this stuff.  :) 
    Sooo... does this means that the machines finally rose up and took out the human race?  @-)
  • Har
    Har Posts: 401 Enthusiast
    Har... very, very cool stuff.  :)
    Thanks!  :) 
  • SimonKJones
    SimonKJones Posts: 4,448 Enthusiast
    I find the idea of the machines wiping out their creators a bit cliched and dull. I'd almost prefer it if humans wiped themselves out, leaving their machines behind. The machines then carried on according to their programming, stuck in endless, purposelessness (or not?) combat/survival loops.
  • Masqutti
    Masqutti Posts: 340
    edited July 2013
    Simon goes pretty deep. :) I'll have to read all the answers and reply in a minute.
  • spydurhank
    spydurhank Posts: 3,193 Expert
    Oh snap... great idea Simon. I like it.  :D 
    I'm making the asteroid textures seamless in Gimp right now. They're taking a while because they're 4096x4096, but it'll make them easier to wrap onto the models. I'll post some pics in a little while.
  • Masqutti
    Masqutti Posts: 340
    I'm using HF2U, Blender, Gimp, Vegas and Mocha Hitfilm. Oh, and also ICE for environment or reflection maps.
    I'm really kinda diggin' the post apocalyptic Earth and A.I. Ships idea. Just subjects that I'm into.  :) 
    I made what I guess you would call a 3D space dome yesterday for the outer space scenes and I can do the same for clouds or a skybox.
    Also, I know that Blender has a procedural terrain creator called Ant landscape addon which is really good, in case using Vue is too difficult to incorporate into the workflow. Just keep in mind that when importing an animated camera into HF2U from Blender, you need to play with the zoom in HF2U so that it matches the camera in Blender.
    I can pretty much talk at any time... unless I'm working. Either on this site, smart phone, or whatever you guys come up with. :D  

    I've fixed the plugin for blender, so that it exports with the correct zoom value. But there are other bugs that mess rotational values sometimes, and it might be hitfilm internal bug, it's under investigation. Otherwise, It's really usable and great plugin! I can share it when needed. And will after the rotationbug is fixed.


    I've used the ANT landscape, it's really nice.

    Only just saw this thread...d'oh!
    FWIW, I do a lot of work with dark-ambient soundscaping that might possibly be usable for something like this if interested. Here's a live long-form improv set I did on processed/looped 8-string guitar last year that's definitely in the ominous/moody/sci-fi-ish kinda vein as an example...I could easily work up more in the same kind of style if you guys think it might be useful (it goes through a lot of different themes across the 40+ minutes, so feel free to jump around in it....sadly, it seems I can't embed either the Soundcloud or Bandcamp players here):
    Hitfilm 2 Ultimate (duh ;) )
    Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 12
    Blufftitler
    Vue Esprit 11
    Blender
    Photoshop
    Cakewalk Sonar Producer X1
    Sony Soundforge Studio
    Izotope Ozone 5
    Izotope Alloy 2
    Native Instruments Reaktor 5
    Native Instruments/Heavyocity Damage
    XLN Audio Addictive Drums
    ...and a boatload of hardware audio processors (Eventide, TC, etc), controllers, and various stringed instruments. :))

    Great to know, Har!
    Ambient soundtracks will be needed!
    Can you tell about the Vue, is it easily integrated into workflow, where animating, compositing and most stuff is done inside hitfilm?

     

    Har... very, very cool stuff.  :) 
    Here're a few quick questions. If this is gonna be a post apocalyptic type of thing... how do you guys feel about a half destroyed moon which leaves a huge debris field which from a distance, looks like a partial ring, almost like Saturn's rings except it's not fully formed, and also a whole bunch of huge craters on the Earth from Nuclear war? You should be able to see the craters from space.
    I only ask because I just went outside and took a few pics to use as textures for a bunch of asteroids and thought that it'd be a cool establishing shot. Oh and before I forget... should the continents look a bit different, kinda like some of the coastlines sank into the ocean during whatever kind of war happened? Again, this is only if you guys want to do a post apocalyptic thing... let me know what you guys think? 

    Yes this is great! I approve. :D

  • Masqutti
    Masqutti Posts: 340
    My computer works now. Somewhat. :) I'm still on a very tight schedule, mainly because a dayjob, but also, we have a 5 weeks old baby to look out for. :D That really eats time!
    I think I'll have to quickly start drawing the sketches now that I have this 1 hour of freetime!
  • spydurhank
    spydurhank Posts: 3,193 Expert
    Here's an asteroid or chunk of the moon that I made real fast. Obviously, the colors can be changed to whatever we need them to be.
    I'm the same way, it's hard to find or make the time to work on stuff. If I could do this full time... believe me, I would.   
    rjof.jpg


    juuw.jpg


    t2vm.jpg

     


  • Masqutti
    Masqutti Posts: 340
    That's nice meteor we got there! :) Displace modifier for the surface's small detail? How much polygons? :)
  • spydurhank
    spydurhank Posts: 3,193 Expert
    For now it's at 393,216 faces. @-)
    Unfortunately it has to be that high if we want to import it into HF2U.
    It's not that big of a problem for me because my machine is pretty good. I can bring the poly count down though, by using normal and bump maps if we're planning on just rendering some of this stuff in Blender and then compositing it in HF2U.
    That by the way... is something that we should decide on. What we can render out in 2D to composite in HF2U and what absolutely needs to be imported into HF2U, as a 3D model. It'll save render times I think.  
  • Har
    Har Posts: 401 Enthusiast
    edited July 2013
    Great to know, Har!
    Ambient soundtracks will be needed!
    Can you tell about the Vue, is it easily integrated into workflow, where animating, compositing and most stuff is done inside hitfilm?
    Well, I'm partially using it for the obvious stuff like creating animations to be rendered out (either as video clips or image sequences) to then import into HF, or creating background/scenery plates for which it's excellent at (for example, I used Vue to create the album cover artwork on the bottom 3 at http://ambientguitarist.bandcamp.com/).
    But the main thing I've been experimenting with and have been really excited about the results so far - is to use Vue for creating large spherical panoramic backgrounds to then use HF2U's Environment Map to create an immersive area the camera can then "swim around" in, similar to the cool example that Simon did a little while back using that 4K cityscape image that he then imported the 3D flying saucer model into. Vue allows you to render out panoramic images up to 360 degrees horizontal, and spherical up to 180 degrees vertical (I initially tried rendering out a monster sized 4K one at highest quality, but Vue estimated 37+ hours to complete so I opted for something much smaller until I got their HyperVue network rendering module to divide up the workload. :)) ).
    For totally-in-the-box scenes, the tests I've worked up have looked great so far...below is one of the quick tests I did using a 270h/180v spherical sky I did in Vue, imported into HF2U with Environment Map applied, and then imported a 3D model of the satellite dish. Then, when you animate the 3D camera in HF in this kind of scene, it looks really nice for fly-arounds and such.  :) 
    However, what I'm really looking forward to working on with all of this very soon is taking all of that stuff, and then incorporating greenscreen footage camera-solved with Mocha Hitfilm...and then using THOSE camera moves within that environment. So that way, I can then plunk my own gruesome, egotistic self into these scenes  :)) ...and try to get some realistic parallax differences between the Vue generated backgrounds, and whatever ends up in the foreground: 3D models, the Mocha-tracked greenscreen footage, etc.
    Har_DishSunsetTest1.png
  • Masqutti
    Masqutti Posts: 340
    Vue sounds great.

    Okay, about the blender, Vue and every 3D software out there. It would be possible to create the basic 3D camera animations for example in blender, then export that camera into Hitfilm, Vue and basicly many other software.
    But I'm still worried about hitfilm's capability to use that cameradata, as I've noticed that 1 bug thats under investigation. If it happens, it can be a pain in the ***. It may not happen everytime. but when it do, it needs manual fixing in hitfilm.
    This is an advanced feature, yet pretty simple, because it allows to use multiple software to render out things as you ever wish.
    Also, let's keep in mind, that if we have the same camera-animation in hitfilm, blender, vue and maybe even some other 3D-software, if there's a need to change the camera animation, it has to be changed in every software, and rerender everything in that shot! That's why we should keep things in strict control.
    Blender, Vue etc. has pretty incredible quality renderers, so we could benefit from them alot. But it's also alot slower to render out than in hitfilm.

    Spydurhank, or did you mean to use 2D planar techinques to achieve 3D-like backrounds??? :D
  • RedHat
    RedHat Posts: 75
    edited July 2013
    Wow, there is a lot going on in this thread.  It all is coming together fantastically.  I was thinking of using vue for background shots because its render times are painfully slow.  If we composite the layers correctly in HFU2 it will look believable. 
    I've always liked the idea of a spilt earth with maybe part of the earth orbiting as a second moon.   Maybe oil & natural gas companies finally hit the fault line that caused the spilt or a meteor shower did.  These earth stealing companies really bother me, so the former idea really inspires.
    Simon, your ideas are great!
  • Har
    Har Posts: 401 Enthusiast
    edited July 2013
    Also, let's keep in mind, that if we have the same camera-animation in hitfilm, blender, vue and maybe even some other 3D-software, if there's a need to change the camera animation, it has to be changed in every software, and rerender everything in that shot! That's why we should keep things in strict control.
    Blender, Vue etc. has pretty incredible quality renderers, so we could benefit from them alot. But it's also alot slower to render out than in hitfilm.
    That's actually exactly why I'm liking the idea of mostly using Vue for the spherical panoramic background plates, instead of trying to render out camera animations within Vue itself - the only time put into rendering in Vue is for the single spherical panoramic image itself....after that, it's turned into the skydome using the HF Environment Map, and the only camera animations that take place after that are purely within Hitfilm itself, which is obviously a lot faster. Swing the Hitfilm camera left, right, up, down and around...and it looks like you're spinning within the Vue landscape.  :) 
    Of course, this can limit certain things - such as, for example, the way the Sun in Vue interacts with any objects within the Vue scene itself.
    But the way I've been working around that kind of thing is to keep ALL such objects completely out of the Vue scene if at all possible and use it purely for creating the static spherical panoramic plates ...and import them into Hitfilm instead, after which you can then use HF's own lights, light flares, animatable cloud/fog/particle effects. Then any and all camera movements are created and keyframed purely within Hitfilm. That's how I set up that image of the satellite dish: I originally tried doing the whole thing in Vue by importing the 3D object into it, and then animating the camera positions.
    But instead, I used Hitfilm's own lights and light/lens flares around the satellite dish object, using the Vue image's Sun as a visual reference point.
    Sure, it ain't a perfect solution. But it seems to be working for me rather nicely so far...I'm finding myself almost feeling kinda guilty by NOT using Vue's own animation abilities very often now...  :))  
  • spydurhank
    spydurhank Posts: 3,193 Expert
    Spydurhank, or did you mean to use 2D planar techinques to achieve 3D-like backrounds??? :D


    I think we're talking about the same thing... you'd render out image sequences of your 3D scene or objects into 2D, import those renders into HF2U for compositing. Even then... you'd still be able to go 2.5D in HF2U but it'd be easier to interact with particles or other 3D effects.

  • Masqutti
    Masqutti Posts: 340
    Har ok now I got it! Lets use that, spherical backround plates! They look fantastic! :)
    Spydurhank, So you mean rendering 3D animation from blender then importing it as an image seq and compositing that in hitfilm with the other footage? 
  • Masqutti
    Masqutti Posts: 340

    Redhat and Har are in the same wavelength. :)
    I'm doing actually Sip as a model already. I thought sketching can be done in 3D... with blender. ha.

  • spydurhank
    spydurhank Posts: 3,193 Expert
    Har ok now I got it! Lets use that, spherical backround plates! They look fantastic! :)
    Spydurhank, So you mean rendering 3D animation from blender then importing it as an image seq and compositing that in hitfilm with the other footage? 


    Yes, exactly... we don't necessarily need to do it this way, but like I said... it'd be easier to have interactions with 2.5D renders and HF2U's 3D effects such as particles, smoke, and clouds. Plus, it'll be easier on whomever's system we decide to render this bad boy on. 

  • MichaelJames
    MichaelJames Posts: 2,034 Enthusiast
    So Masqutti.. Whats the timeline for this to get rolling?  Because we really don't need the ship model or the exact models to get started. Rigging the cameras and then particle effects could be started now.  A fake ship could be used a stand in.  So could free 3d planet models that were scaled appropriately.  I mean really if someone had mad abstact skills this scene could be rigged just as points with nothing there.  Pick a free 3d model that is close enough to the design of your ship so we can get going now.  It makes a difference if your design has wings or is a blade versus using a model that's like the enterprise.
  • spydurhank
    spydurhank Posts: 3,193 Expert
    MJ is Correct... you could set up animated camera's and empties in Blender to represent the ships, planets, asteroids and satellite debri, then export those camera's and empties into HF2U, parent some low poly place holders to those empties to create an animated type of storyboard. Good call MJ. :)    
  • Masqutti
    Masqutti Posts: 340
    You're right. :)
    Well we need that storyboard.
    Then we need to know the workflow for certain.
    Then we can create that plain animation, from the storyboard, and knowing which program to use to animate.
    I'm still abit unsure to use Blender, due to bugs encountered. If the camera exporter would work rocksolid, there's no problems and our possibilities will explode considering the workflow.
    Then we need the people, many of you have already signed for specific jobs.
    At this point, it wouldn't hurt to do some sneaky posts to your hitfilm-friends about this project, to get as much people involved as possible. Not that we couldn't do this with this group, but the more the merrier and ensures the future of community-projects. :)
    ==================
    I'm afraid I might not get the storyboard done until sunday. I will try, but my evenings are busy. If I get one free evening, that may be enough. Until then, we'll discuss things, everyone is free to do stuff based on the script etc. To make clear, today was not a free evening, about 1 hour of spare time. Nothing lost here! :D
    When we get that storyboard, and one guy to do those animations, the rest follows easier.
    ==================
    Any advices?
  • spydurhank
    spydurhank Posts: 3,193 Expert
    Well, if we only export camera's and empties out of Blender, for full CGi scenes, no live footage, all we need to do is pick a single focal length and sensor width and make sure that everyone uses the same specs, if anyone changes any of the camera specs for any particular scene, depending on what they're going for, it's fine as long as we have a "read me" text file or something that we can all quickly look at and know what's going on. 
    On the other hand, if there's live footage that needs to be match moved, and then we need to export that camera... we may run into issues. I've experimented with exporting the Blender camera and tracking points into HF2U with great results but it's not a one size fits all type of fix. You need to play with camera zoom till you get it right in HF2U, which is a bit tedious but hey... till someone can repair the Blender to HitFilm exporter... that's all we've got for now.
    Anyway, here're some pics of a destroyed Moon. It's not final because I'm probably gonna add huge cracks or canyons that were formed when whatever happened to cause the damage to the Moon, occurred. I'll also add some scorch marks. There's too much displacement on this one, I'll tone it down later. :)    
    ksox.jpg


    94ws.jpg


    r81k.jpg


    urej.jpg

     



  • Masqutti
    Masqutti Posts: 340
    edited July 2013
    That moon looks fantastic! :D
    Sip.png

    Here's a brief model of Sip! If anyone want's to continue from this point on, feel free. It needs loads of detail, texturing and stuff. But the basic model is there. It needs to be abit "silly" yet believable.
    I'm off to bed now, see you all tomorrow!
  • MichaelJames
    MichaelJames Posts: 2,034 Enthusiast
    edited July 2013
    @Masqutti then lets not use something which the bugs may kill the workflow.  Also, isn't the goal to do this all in hitfilm?  I mean you can't make models in hitfilm(exemption) but everything else could and should be done in hitfilm. I think CGI is kinda not needed. The exceptions also including editing and audio which can be whatever people are the most comfortable with.  Break up the scenes into different parts to get worked on.  So each scene is a different project file(to keep things from getting too unwieldy)
    Now would be the perfect time for OrangePoeke to chime in with what he did on his short.
    In going over the outline script some of the stuff could be simplified to eliminate camera directions and exposition from the script.  It gives more room for the person compositing the scene and setting up the cameras and then things can be adjusted after a working edit comes together.  I just went through script and took out what I was talking about.  Like the "belonging to a hostile force" does not translate to anything on screen.  A ship can't notice things the same way people can... and this would really be a matter of camera movements which should not be in the script. 
    Consider letting the inside the planet's atmosphere stuff go for now.  While scripts typically translate into a page a minute... the 3/4 of a page I got from the all the space stuff will be 2 minutes at the least and very computer intensive.  Also I had to include the Sun to provide practical lighting to give shadows.
    EXT. SPACE
    The SPACECRAFT SIP(little shuttle) is flying through the vast expanse of space towards a cluster of ASTROIDS.  The astroids are traveling towards SIP.  Behind SIP in the distance is a STAR. Beyond the astroids there is an earth like PLANET.  As SIP nears the astroids a large STARSHIP is traveling in front of the Astroids.  Sip comes to stop in space.  An astroid flies towards SIP as SIP avoids being hit.  The starship emits a brief scanning ray towards SIP.
    EXT. SPACE NEAR THE ASTROIDS
    SIP’s thruster turn on and the ship continue’s towards the Astroids.  The starship adjusts its course and begins following SIP into the astroids.  A large BURST of ENERGY is emitted from SIP’s THRUSTERS as SIP begins to speed up while dodging astroids. 
    INT. ASTROID CLUSTER
    Starship is following after SIP which is further into the  astroids.  Astroids fly towards starship and are deflected by an ENERGY SHIELD that is only visible when objects hit it. Starship fires ROCKETS towards SIP
    INT. ASTROID CLUSTER
    SIP is dodging rockets and astroids.
    EXT. ASTROID CLUSTER
    SIP emerges from the astroids and heads towards the planet.  SIP starts entering the Atmosphere of the planet as the starship exits the Astroids.
  • spydurhank
    spydurhank Posts: 3,193 Expert
    Hmmm, I thought we were using whatever software we wanted and compositing everything in HF. 
    It doesn't really matter to me but just realize... compositing a whole bunch of 3D models together is gonna be pretty hard if you're just using HF, especially since some of these models are pretty high poly. Wait till you start compositing with 3D landscapes.
    See, with the ships, you'll need at least 2 to 3 copies of the same ship on top of each other, depending on how you're gonna composite them together.
    1 for colors and diffuse.
    1 for reflections and or specularity.
    1 for the engines and possibly more copies depending on how many light sources the ship has because you'll want to control every light source.
    The Earth and Moon will require at least 2 copies of each plus, the Earth is one high poly model, the clouds are another high poly model and then the atmosphere which isn't too high in poly count. So that's 6 models of everything that makes up the Earth just to come up with something realistic. All I'm saying is this, that's gonna be a whole lotta geometry in HF2U. It's gonna be a big ole pain to even animate anything, especially when you add in lights, shadows, AO, motion blur and whatever other effects are thrown in there. It can be done but not everyone has a fast machine. Food for thought... food for thought. :)  
  • MichaelJames
    MichaelJames Posts: 2,034 Enthusiast
    edited July 2013
    Well its up to the community.  That's why im curious how Orange Poeke did his thing.  Ima message him.
    I think a sun would be easy.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJDHl8q_i7s
  • SimonKJones
    SimonKJones Posts: 4,448 Enthusiast
    I'd say whatever tools are required, though obviously I'd like to see HitFilm used as much as possible. But doing the animation in other software, rendering out layers and doing the final comp in HitFilm is a completely valid workflow. The whole point of HItFilm is that it enables all sorts of approaches and techniques.
    The way to define this project is as a community project, not as a showcase specifically for HitFilm. This is about showing off the skill of the community, which inevitably will include a lot of HitFilm usage simply because of this community being all about HitFilm. :P But forcing yourselves to ONLY use HitFilm would artificially limit the short, I think, especially when we have so many talented Blender/Maya/Cinema4D/etc users.
    Up to you guys, but that's what I reckon.
    It may well be that you use HitFilm 100% for wider space shots, but for extreme close-ups of ships requiring more advanced texturing/lighting/animation you go natively into Blender. Adapt the software based on the needs of each shot.
  • Masqutti
    Masqutti Posts: 340
    edited July 2013

     I just went through script and took out what I was talking about.  Like the "belonging to a hostile force" does not translate to anything on screen.  A ship can't notice things the same way people can... and this would really be a matter of camera movements which should not be in the script. 
    Consider letting the inside the planet's atmosphere stuff go for now.  While scripts typically translate into a page a minute... the 3/4 of a page I got from the all the space stuff will be 2 minutes at the least and very computer intensive.  Also I had to include the Sun to provide practical lighting to give shadows.
     

    MJ, You're right about that hostility not translating to the screen(except finally when the rockets launch:). A basic thing we've been taught, but I decided to break that "rule" to be more clear about this. Also, naming things, like I gave a name to Agro, is one thing I've been taught. Even if the character only appears once, the name gives it that character. Without it, it's just an object. I prefer them to be something more. The Sun/star is a good idea. 
    I'm not entirely with you about that ship noticing things. Even if it's a ship, there must be all kinds of sensors and stuff. For example it may detect shift in a magnetic field, then it has to turn, and use it's other detectors to estimate what it has encountered. Or then I didn't quite catch what you said. :)
    I would not yet get rid of the atmosphere and at-the-planet stuff. But We could create this in two parts. First the spacescene. If it looks like we're getting on with it fast, we can create the other part also. If it's too slow and people lose interest, let's just get rid of it.
    I don't think the spacescene lasts 2 minutes. it can last one, or even less. depending on the editor, and animations. I prefer dynamic rhythm, So even if the first shots are slower, the "action" will be swift.
     

    All I'm saying is this, that's gonna be a whole lotta geometry in HF2U. It's gonna be a big ole pain to even animate anything, especially when you add in lights, shadows, AO, motion blur and whatever other effects are thrown in there. It can be done but not everyone has a fast machine. Food for thought... food for thought. :)  


    Spydurhank you're right! As I'm not into using the camera export from blender, how do you feel about creating some of the more distant models into animated planes, and position that into hitfilm comp as a 3D plane that's a billboard!? Ofc objects that are close has to have the geometry. Maybe the planet too because it's supposed to be a bit closer.

    It would be cool to use mostly hitfilm because it's efficiency, but other programs maybe used. Without the fully working 3D camera export / import we cannot yet use this other programs to their full extent.

  • Masqutti
    Masqutti Posts: 340

    And ofc! We should use these dummy-objects that are low-poly-stuff, and only at last replace them with high quality models. That way we save time, don't need to watch the screen staggering in low FPS etc. 

  • Masqutti
    Masqutti Posts: 340

    Ok.
    Let's establish some communications. I think the forum isn't enough. Let's use IRC? It's good because it's lightweight and can be accessed via browsers, software, even vie mobile phones, so it would be all that we need for a realtime-chat!
    Server: Quakenet
    Channel: #Sip_the_fly
    Please, join! :)