Magic Lantern now lets you record DNG

MichaelJamesMichaelJames Website User Posts: 2,038 Enthusiast
So I read Philip Bloom’s post this morning and it was praising Magic Lantern.  I had to see what was going on and well apparently you can record raw DNG from canons.  Its still in pre alpha but this would be very nice for all you full frame having canon users.  I unfortunately just sold my Canon 6d L
 
http://www.eoshd.com/content/10221/magic-lantern-discover-2k-raw-dng-function-on-5d-mark-ii-and-iii

Comments

  • AxelWilkinsonAxelWilkinson Staff Administrator, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 5,242 Staff
    It looks like Magic Lantern doesn't quite let you do that, yet, but they are in early testing to make it possible in the future.  Either way, its a promising development.  Though its simultaneously perplexing, as apparently Canon has had that ability in their cameras for years but not taken any advantage of it at all.  Thanks for the link though.
  • MichaelJamesMichaelJames Website User Posts: 2,038 Enthusiast
    I've heard talk about canon and orther retailers doing this because it allows them to have multiple tiers of cameras and keep profit margins so high.  It does not benefit them to have everyone buy 1 camera for cheap that gives them superior quality when they could work in concert with other camera makers to keep profits high by having a series of cameras that at the cord are the same but have gimped functions.  This explains a little more why black magic could make a revolutionary product that costs to little, its because the old guard was not interested in a revolution.
  • StrikeEmStudiosStrikeEmStudios Website User Posts: 224
    Interesting, Would love to see this work eventually, It breaths new life into the excellent, but ageing camera!
    I would simply assume this sort of ability is on there from early testing, Canon aren't likely to load every ability the camera has, instead their gonna slowly drip feed new features over the years so they can get money out of you.
  • SimonKJonesSimonKJones Moderator Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 4,450 Enthusiast
    I don't think Canon ever intended this to be a feature. It's simply a side effect of having video strapped to the hardware of a high quality, high res, RAW-shooting stills camera. There will still be a lot of practical considerations, not least whether data throughput of this quantity will damage the camera long-term. Exciting stuff, though. I wonder which DSLRs the feature will eventually roll out to?
  • MichaelJamesMichaelJames Website User Posts: 2,038 Enthusiast
    The modders risk is always possible, but reading some of the tests people are saying there's no excess heat.  On the canon 6d It can record 29 minutes of film before shutting off.  Now everyone assumes the limit is to protect the sensor and the components but theres an interesting article about how the time limit is self imposed to avoid being classified as a video camera which has higher taxes associated with it. 
  • ESPicturesESPictures Website User Posts: 533 Just Starting Out
    You wouldn't know if there was excess heat though, until it causes enough damage to the camera to become apparent.  The temperature sensor in the camera is calibrated for normal use, not for modding the camera to produce raw files.  The most likely result is that everything will work fine for a few weeks of heavy shooting and then the sensor will start to suffer thermal degradation.  I wouldn't recommend this to anyone unless they feel their camera is disposable.  I strongly advise waiting a few months and then check Ebay to see how many toasted 5Ds come up for sale.
  • MichaelJamesMichaelJames Website User Posts: 2,038 Enthusiast
    edited May 2013
    @ES I am only reporting what the modders said.  Im not saying its 100% but I am sure they do have some methodology to check.  Companies do not release things which break or do not work 1 micron over their normal levels.  They have to have lots of room to compensate for weather temperatures  having an impact on the internal temps while running. Its like a processor.  You can overclock a processor without upgrading the cooling system to typically like a 30% increase.  Additional cooling or more advanced cooling is needed beyond a certain point to maintain functionality without killing the processor.  I do not think this is going to just toast cameras left and right because its not pushing the camera to do 60 fps at 1080p or crazier stuff. It sounds like its just intercepting the normal buffer of the camera.  Time will tell whose right but this will further revolutionize filmmaking for DSLR users.

    http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5247.0
    From their website
    About sensor heating rumors:
    The only thing that could get warmer is DIGiC and the CF circuitry, but i am sure that the power dissipation that reaches the sensor
    through all that plastic housing will not have any noticeable temperature raise.
    detailed: when doing that much DMA transfers and CF writing, we may cause a bit more current drain (which causes squared power dissipation)
    but we do not encode any H.264 while recording, so we use less power there.
    its *possible* that the CF writing will consume less energy than the encoding with H.264, which will result in *less* power consumption.
    raw is being produced by the DIGiC for every single frame anyway. we "just" save it away.
    still this is a *theory*, but i expect the consumption and the temperatures not to raise at all.
    http://vimeo.com/66170436
  • ToonmanToonman Website User Posts: 81
    This is huge news. Technical considerations aside, if this becomes stable enough, it's going to be huge. The MKII (still in use a lot out there) and the MKIII are full-size sensor DSLRs, which the Blackmagic is not. I think the BMCC still has an edge over the Canon DSLRs in terms of the quality of detail, but nevertheless, this will definitely hurt them a bit. Users thinking of moving from a MKII/III over to a BMCC will think twice now... or three times. 
    Even Canon must be kinda scared there... this could take a bite at their higher-end cameras (C300), which granted, have other useful features a MKII doesn't, but if all you care about is the quality of the footage, you'd have to look no further.
    I'm pretty excited over this. There's nothing I despise more than H.264 compression artifacts. If we have it the Magic Lantern way, this will soon be a thing of the past :-).
  • MichaelJamesMichaelJames Website User Posts: 2,038 Enthusiast
    I am going to be going to the BM Production camera when that becomes available because its a super 35mm sensor.  The 2.5k camera vs a raw 1080p dslr has some differences which need to be factored in, such as media size, media cost and work flow options.    A high speed cf or (if it works) sd card can be a bit pricy compared to the recommended high speed SSDs which have dropped in price.  THe 128gb San Disk extreme pro CF card is $799.  Also, some of the media is limited in size.  I have a high speed SSD that is on BM's preferred SSDs that is 512gigs. SD cards are dropping in price but are not jumping up in size that much.  For documentaries it is nice to not have to worry as much about swapping media and even narrative films you do not want to have to stop after 2-3 takes to swap media.  Still need SD and CF cards to start quadrupling in size.
    Do not forget that BM Pocket Camera.  For 1k you get a 1080p compressed raw camera that records onto sd cards. 
    I think Black Magic has something for every level of work flow.  Do I need a 4k Camera?  Nope, but I do like the idea of zooming in and recomposing my image in post if necessary.
  • MichaelJamesMichaelJames Website User Posts: 2,038 Enthusiast
    @Tooshka i think the big thing which will discourage super high quality rubbish movies is the workload and that most peoples computers will get overly bogged down by RAW, 2.5k RAW and 4k compressed RAW files. 
  • AxelWilkinsonAxelWilkinson Staff Administrator, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 5,242 Staff
    Nah, a few more years and the computers will catch up.  Processors and storage continue to progress, and I expect in another 5 years, cameras shooting raw HD will be numerous and affordable, and computers that can handle it won't be hard to come by.  
  • MichaelJamesMichaelJames Website User Posts: 2,038 Enthusiast
    Well Black Magic listed whats required for PCs to run and edit and color grade 4k material. 
    They listed the HP Z820 as a 4k grading capable computer.  That's a 2 processor holding system that can run up to 16 cores.
    The Supermicro SuperServer 7046GT-TRF-TC4 Is listed for if you want 4k color grading and stereoscopic grading

    For a generic windows workstation that does not need guaranteed performance. 
    > Windows 7 Pro with SP1, 64-bit.
    > 12 GB RAM or higher.
    > Two x16 lane PCIe 2.0 slots are required for GPU cards. Some GPU cards require double width slots and some may require auxiliary power connections. PCIe 3.0 slots are prefered.
    > x8 lane PCIe 3.0 slots are preferred for RED Rocket cards or a host bus adapter (HBA) card. However x4 lane PCIe 2.0 slots can be used.
    > A x4 lane PCIe or faster slot is required for the DeckLink HD Extreme 3D card. An additional port is required if you choose to install its HDMI bracket for HDMI monitoring.
    > Fast storage connected by SATA, SAS or Fiber Channel.
    > If you are building a system with only a single GPU we recommend the fastest one you can justify. Such as the GeForce GTX 580 with 3072MB ram.
    > If you are building a system with a separate GUI and image processing GPU, you will need either the lower cost NVIDIA Quadro 600 which can be used with 2D video or the Quadro 4000 for use with 2D and 3D video for image processing.
    > One or more NVIDIA CUDA capable cards for image processing. The following certified cards are listed in order of increasing power: Quadro 4000, Quadro 5000, Quadro 6000, Tesla C2075 and GeForce GTX 580 3072 MB & GeForce GTX 680 4096MB.
    > You will need to install the NVIDIA driver for your GPU card and we recommend 296.88
    > DeckLink HD Extreme 3D card or UltraStudio SDI for monitoring. If using an UltraStudio SDI, your computer needs a USB 3.0 host controller uPD720200 with the latest Renesas Electronics USB 3.0 drivers and firmware installed.
  • ESPicturesESPictures Website User Posts: 533 Just Starting Out
    Yeah, computers are designed with the expectation that advanced users are going to be tinkering with bios settings and overclocking.  It's a supported feature.  Computers are designed to be opened up and tinkered with.  Cannon never intended anyone to try and write raw files with the 5D or mod the camera.  So it's not really a good analogy. 
    I just think anyone who does this should be aware there is a very real danger of bricking their $3000 camera.  Writing raw files to a CF card takes a lot more power than writing compressed files simply because the file size is a lot larger.  And that extra power means extra heat is produced.  And the camera is simply not designed for it.  If it's worth the risk to people, they should do it.  But I don't think anyone should assume the risk is trivial is all I'm saying.  Maybe, it will work the way that modders hope and not cause long term damage.  But I personally wouldn't care to bet an expensive piece of equipment on it.
  • MarcinMarcin Website User Posts: 132 Just Starting Out
    Writing raw files to a CF card takes a lot more power than writing compressed files simply because the file size is a lot larger.  And that extra power means extra heat is produced.  And the camera is simply not designed for it.


    Yes, it might be true, but it is also possible that more heat was produced during real-time h.264 video compression, which is not a trivial task. The heat might not be a problem.

  • MichaelJamesMichaelJames Website User Posts: 2,038 Enthusiast

     

    Yeah, computers are designed with the expectation that advanced users are going to be tinkering with bios settings and overclocking.  It's a supported feature.  Computers are designed to be opened up and tinkered with.  Cannon never intended anyone to try and write raw files with the 5D or mod the camera.  So it's not really a good analogy. 
    I just think anyone who does this should be aware there is a very real danger of bricking their $3000 camera.  Writing raw files to a CF card takes a lot more power than writing compressed files simply because the file size is a lot larger.  And that extra power means extra heat is produced.  And the camera is simply not designed for it.  If it's worth the risk to people, they should do it.  But I don't think anyone should assume the risk is trivial is all I'm saying.  Maybe, it will work the way that modders hope and not cause long term damage.  But I personally wouldn't care to bet an expensive piece of equipment on it.

     

    Some computers and components are more designed for tinkering then others.  Magic Lantern is evidence of all the hacks that can work ontop of canons firmware.  Where if it locks up you just pull the battery and its fine.  They do warn about it might brick your camera but the chance is very low.  If the software is still sitting on top of canons firmware then I don't think its going to increase the risk of bricking. 

    Right now its all speculation until the final beta or regular release of the software is out.  Magic Lantern already let cameras disable AGC, have levels and histograms and all these non native features run on top of the firmware.  They even squeezed out being able to record in prores.  So Lets see what they can do.
  • MichaelJamesMichaelJames Website User Posts: 2,038 Enthusiast
    edited May 2013
    For all those who are fearful of using MagicLantern or using the RAW recording feature here is a nice little breakdown which explains how using RAW recording will not overheat your camera.
    http://www.eoshd.com/content/10494/magic-lantern-5d-mark-iii-raw-video-and-camera-reliability

    Can't wait for this to hit beta.  Should see some interesting results.

    Here is a comparison of the 5D Mark III shooting raw at 1080p to some other cameras.
    http://www.eoshd.com/content/10475/canon-1d-c-vs-5d-mark-iii-raw-and-c300-gh2-resolution-comparison
  • timelinestudiotimelinestudio Website User Posts: 1

    All respect to our Sir Simon Jones and Sir Axel Wilkinson, id been using the magic lantern raw maybe almost for 2 years, 5d mark 2 gives me a real astonishing raw footages,  based on my opinion, i dont think the camera will break if you use for filming, because  when filming you only take very short footages maybe the  longest will be maybe 3 mins or 1 min per scene, wont really heat up, but yeah i think it will break when you use raw for maybe an hour straight :), i just want to speak out for all canon users out there who doesnt have the money to buy blackmagic but a huge fan of Hitfilm and an loyal user of hitfilm, To all of Hitfilm authorities please, consider us in the future to add some features for magic lantern dng users because i think many many people is using dng thanks you so much. :)

  • WhiteCranePhotoWhiteCranePhoto Website User Posts: 896 Enthusiast

    MichaelJames  Tooshka is unfortunately spot on. A *lot* of filmmakers already use Red and Black Magic cameras because they think that "shot on Red" or "shot in RAW" equate to "great film" even if the lighting is crap, the compositions are Flickr-grade, and the director doesn't pay any attention to the story or the actors.

    It's not ML's fault, or Black Magic's, but they are both facilitating the "raw capture = talent" filmmakers... which are by far the majority. 

    If these same filmmakers HAD any talent, B movies would look great, but developing talent takes work.

  • MichaelJamesMichaelJames Website User Posts: 2,038 Enthusiast

    It doesn't make it better, but when you color grade... it gives you more issues to shoot an anything but raw and try to color grade.  Its nice to be able to have more flexibility in post.  People need to not worry about determining when someone has talent.  If someone wants a feature, they are allowed to have it.

  • WhiteCranePhotoWhiteCranePhoto Website User Posts: 896 Enthusiast

    MichaelJames  You completely missed the point.

     

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