Thoughts on Adobe’s Move

JCL_FilmsJCL_Films Website User Posts: 156
edited May 2013 in General
I thought I would open this up for discussion,
What does everyone think about Adobe’s move in leasing their software instead of selling it? Does anyone foresee AE hobbyists and students (who can’t afford $20 a month minimum) switching over to Hitfilm or something else for their VFX work? Finally, what will this do to companies who make plug-ins and tutorials for AE, Premiere Pro, etc. (especially if they are aimed at hobbyist and Indy filmmakers and not businesses)?
P.S. This would be a great time for Hitfilm to support Mac. ;)

Comments

  • RobinRobin Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 1,671 Enthusiast
    I think the people who can not afford $20 a month neither can afford 1000$ at once for an Adobe product - the way I think of this, if I would have saved up to an Adobe program, I would have enough money to use it for 50 months (1000/20). 50 months is a pretty long time, more than four years. In this timespan I would probably already have bought a newer version of the program, if I'm serious about it. So in the end, this move makes Adobes product more appealing to almost all people but those who buy a piece software and don't care about updates for more than five years. Which is probably a quite minor part, who don't really belong to Adobe's target group. And yes, those will have an additional reason to switch to hitfilm.
  • OrangePekoeOrangePekoe Website User Posts: 478
    I thought I would open this up for discussion,
    What does everyone think about Adobe’s move in leasing their software instead of selling it? Does anyone foresee AE hobbyists and students (who can’t afford $20 a month minimum) switching over to Hitfilm or something else for their VFX work? Finally, what will this do to companies who make plug-ins and tutorials for AE, Premiere Pro, etc. (especially if they are aimed at hobbyist and Indy filmmakers and not businesses)?
    P.S. This would be a great time for Hitfilm to support Mac. ;)


    From a business standpoint I think this works. 
    However, for the individual and more casual users it really depends on a few factors:
    How often do I use these products?  Is the $20+ / month worth the amount of time I use these products during a given month AND the amount of time it might take to learn a new software package? 
    It's like having a gym membership and whether or not you're making use of it. 
    That being said, if you use Adobe products everyday or you are generating money from the use of their products then $20+ a month is sort of a no brainer considering you're getting access to their whole range of products.  You could essentially also license the software just for the duration of the projects you are working on as well similar to renting lenses for shoots. 
    It's definitely a toss up!
    It sure does make having an "all in one" VFX package at a decent price point all that more tempting ;)


     

  • emmo5611emmo5611 Website User Posts: 71 Enthusiast
    I am not sure what to do with this. I see the benefit of paying the full price for the whole suite. But I rarely use anything but Photoshop and AE. And, while I will only have to pay $30 a month as I am a teacher, it still is a lot of money over the long haul to keep using it for years and years. I do not make any money using it, but do enjoy doing my own stuff, and teaching kids how to use it. However, at those costs, it will more than likely put me out of their price range.
    As for Hitfilm, I think it will push some people to them as it is basically the same program for less. Though I will miss all the plugins, I do not see me using Adobe in the future. I have actually already started to use Hitfilm more as I finally figured out my vegas issues, and my work flow is even better.
    Finally, I do think that adobe will create some other version, a la Photoshop essentials for their whole suite that will be stand alone. just my two cents.
  • StormyKnightStormyKnight Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,726 Ambassador
    edited May 2013
    Here's how I see it.
    I couldn't afford full price for AE CS5 and with the help of a friend who is a teacher, I was able to get it for the student price. Now I have AE CS5 ON my computer. I still check for updates even though I know CS5 will be outdated at some point in the near future since the release of 6. I'd rather have a reasonable upgrade price anyway.
    I've used Photoshop more than any other feature in CS5 and if that cost me $20 a month I'd stick with the version I already have. And will it be $20 a month for Photoshop and $20 a month for AfterEffects AND $20 a month for Mocha AfterEffects? Will the trending be to raise the price $2.00 every time there's an upgrade or do you automatically get the latest version of the program whenever they add more to it?
    Now here's where this idea rubs me the wrong way. If I start paying $20 a month, for just PS or AE or a suite of programs, and a year or two down the road I can't afford it anymore, do I still have the last version of the program ON my computer that's usable or does it become inoperative? Is the subscription internet linked only when the computer is online? That wouldn't help me as I have HitFilm on my laptop and I use it at work where there is no WiFi available but I can still run HitFilm.
    I think I'd rather save up and outright buy a program 'cause just like VisionLab, which may have gone the way of the dinosaur, I can still use it in it's last state should I choose to, no matter how much time goes by. And I have used it on rare occasions.
    VIVA LA HITFILM!!! will be the rallying call when Adobe prices itself out of the market.
  • RobinRobin Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 1,671 Enthusiast
    And will it be $20 a month for Photoshop and $20 a month for AfterEffects AND $20 a month for Mocha AfterEffects? Will the trending be to raise the price $2.00 every time there's an upgrade or do you automatically get the latest version of the program whenever they add more to it?
    Well no, you can pay 20$ for one program or just get the complete range of programs for a total of 40$. Also, you will always work with the newest version. No one can say if there will be price raisings, but I doubt it. CS6 costs roughly the same as CS5 did when it was new, if I recall that right.
    Now here's where this idea rubs me the wrong way. If I start paying $20 a month, for just PS or AE or a suite of programs, and a year or two down the road I can't afford it anymore, do I still have the last version of the program ON my computer that's usable or does it become inoperative? Is the subscription internet linked only when the computer is online? That wouldn't help me as I have HitFilm on my laptop and I use it at work where there is no WiFi available but I can still run HitFilm.
    Well yes, that is one point I'm also worried about, but they are obviously seeing the trend going towards always having internet no matter where you are... At least in Germany, we're miles away from that yet though. Adobe will be offering special version of the software for places where you can't always have an internet connection in special cases, but I don't know exactly how that will work...
  • StormyKnightStormyKnight Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,726 Ambassador
    edited May 2013
    Well no, you can pay 20$ for one program or just get the complete range of programs for a total of 40$. Also, you will always work with the newest version. No one can say if there will be price raisings, but I doubt it. CS6 costs roughly the same as CS5 did when it was new, if I recall that right.
    CS4's list price was $999 as was CS5 and CS6 which is the 'extended version' price. Knock off about $350 for the standard version. So they are staying about the same price as time goes on.
    BUT- you can find the standard versions cheaper (not the student pricing) if you go to:
    http://softwarevalue.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=68&search=after+effects
    or
    http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-65158237-Photoshop-CS6/dp/B007R0RKV8
    According to mashable.com the price is higher when you get up to the recommended all bells and whistles suite.
    http://mashable.com/2012/04/23/adobe-creative-suite-6-pricing/
    Adobe site w/price.
    http://www.adobe.com/products/catalog/cs6._sl_id-contentfilter_sl_catalog_sl_software_sl_creativesuite6.html?start=10
  • DarrenDarren Website User Posts: 164
    edited May 2013
    Ah the good old days...
    I remember when I could update Final Cut from FCP4 to FCStudio (skipping 1 complete version) for $400.  You work that out over 2.5 years (I bought FCStudio before it went to FCS2) and that comes out to $13/month.  And it didn't matter if you had FCP3, the upgrade was always the same price so I would ALWAYS skip a whole version because I could and the level of work I do, I didn't always need the latest and greatest.  Still don't.
    Adobe would make you pay for those upgrades... Going from CS5 to CS5.5? $400.  Going from CS5 to CS6? $800.  Not that I'm complaining, just explaining why the Final Cut route was more beneficial for me at the time.
    I thought that Adobe was going to allow you to "rent" the software when you needed it (meaning if I needed it for a month then I'd pay $XX for that).  But the Creative Cloud asks for an annual commitment.
    I get why Adobe is doing this - nice for them to have regular monthly income instead of banking on twice a year upgrades, but it will be more challenging to the independent/hobbyist.  But even if you got one gig, you could pay for this yearly subscription.
    I'm also wondering how the plugins will play out with the supposed frequent upgrades.
    For now though, I will be sticking with CS6 for a long time (with all my plugins too) and see how this plays out.

    Anyway, there are some great comments on the NFS site here.
  • RodyPolisRodyPolis Website User Posts: 613
    I would like if we were able to get subscriptions per software rather than the whole suite. No need to pay for extra software I'll never use. I also don't like that I'll need to keep paying them forever to keep using the software. Once Adobe knows that whether or not they upgrade, they'll still have your money, what's to drive them to make the products better?
    They won't have the need to make a CS7 with new features if they have you locked into paying them every month anyways. Hopefully they go the more honest route, but this is business and at the end what they want is money.
    Photoshop is the main Adobe product I use, and thankfully my CS4 is still doing what I need so no need to upgrade yet!
  • RobinRobin Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 1,671 Enthusiast
    They won't have the need to make a CS7 with new features if they have you locked into paying them every month anyways. Hopefully they go the more honest route, but this is business and at the end what they want is money.

    That's an interesting and frightening thought there... I think it's at least to hope that competition will keep them going. I mean look at HitFilm, if Adobe stopped developing AE right now, HitFilm would still be developed and getting new features, making users switch more.

  • SimonKJonesSimonKJones Moderator Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 4,450 Enthusiast
    edited May 2013
    I think something that is crucial to this model is adapting the release model as well. Shifting to a subscription model only really works for me if the releases move to a rolling model. One major release a year doesn't make so much sense if people are paying every month.
    Very interesting developments indeed. I didn't expect Adobe to drop the traditional purchasing route so quickly, though it was probably inevitable once the subscription model proved successful. With Microsoft also prodding around this area, I wouldn't be surprised to see more and more companies going this route over the next few years.
  • luxgudluxgud Website User Posts: 128
    So when is Hitfilm becoming subscription based ?
  • SimonKJonesSimonKJones Moderator Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 4,450 Enthusiast
    I see what you did there.
  • DanielGWoodDanielGWood Moderator Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 1,021 Just Starting Out
    It's an interesting move..
    A long time ago, when I was looking into costs of going freelance web developer, I would have much preferred the "buy once-always own" model. While this means a bigger up front investment, you don't need to make as much money every month, so if there's a slow business month it's less of an issue. Like Darren, I'm fine with not using the latest version, so unless something earth-shattering was added I'd probably only upgrade every 2-3 years. I'd also prefer not to be reliant on a company's continued existence in order to use software I rely on.
    As a hobbyist, it is perhaps more affordable to pay monthly (but an annual commitment of £47 a month for those who haven't previously owned an Adobe product... well, £564 is quite a bit!).
    I've also heard it's considerably more expensive outside of the US. While that's far from uncommon *cough* Apple *cough*, it's a little tedious.
    As to the Internet connection issue though, Rikki dug this up on the Adobe site somewhere:

     

    No. Your Creative Cloud desktop applications (such as Photoshop and Illustrator) are installed directly on your computer, so you won't need an ongoing Internet connection to use them on a daily basis.
     

    You will need to be online when you install and license your software. If you have an annual membership, you'll be asked to connect to the web to validate your software licenses every 30 days. However, you'll be able to use products for 180 days even if you're offline.
  • RobinRobin Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 1,671 Enthusiast
    However, you'll be able to use products for 180 days even if you're offline.
    Wait what? Wouldn't that mean you'd only have to pay every 6 months and just go offline when your subscription expires, then renew it to get another 180 days? How will Adobe make sure this doesn't happen?
  • DanielGWoodDanielGWood Moderator Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 1,021 Just Starting Out
    As I understand it, the "annual commitment" is a subtle way of saying that you actually pay your subscription yearly, and the monthly cost is what it works out as divided by 12. Could be wrong though.
  • ToonmanToonman Website User Posts: 81
    There are lots of misconceptions around the Adobe model out there. I personally think it's brilliant.
    First of all, as it was mentioned before, the software IS installed on your workstation. You use it locally. It's not like you're seeing it through a "Cloud Viewer". The only thing that happens is that the software periodically checks the Cloud for a valid license file. Last time I read, it was every 30 days. That's more than enough time to work offline if you prefer to. And even if the internet fails the day of the check, I think there's a "grace period" for the software to keep on working without a license (I would need to verify this).
    Also, I believe nobody is locked to monthly payments. The month you don't need the software, you don't pay, and you don't get to use it (I think the subscription is slightly more expensive, but if you're not sure you'll use the software every month, it's a good alternative). It's that simple. It's great for people who need the software on an on-demand basis. If if you need it full-time, $50 per month is nothing to get a heart attack from. If you're not making $50 per month from using the software, something is seriously wrong there. If you're a student and making no money, I believe there's special pricing for students (need to verify). If you're a hobbyist and want to use it for personal projects... well... I'm sure that if you skip two cheap dinners and 1 night out per month, you can afford it.
    As for Adobe sitting on monthly subscriptions comfortably... I think it's quite the opposite. Adobe is now playing a higher-stakes game with their revenue. Under the traditional revenue model (yearly upgrades... or so), a company claims all its cash at the beginning of the year for the entire dev cycle from its pool of users. Since most users don't want to miss features/updates for the entire year, most of them will pay the upgrade (or yearly subscription, or whatever the company uses). This way, the company gets a lot of its cash to make it through a dev cycle.
    However, Adobe now is allowing users to opt out from paying them at any point in time. Those who purchase a full year of use won't care anyway, but those who need it on-demand can opt for a monthly payment. If you don't need it, don't pay. This means that Adobe could lose some users any moment. They'll need to come up with more creative ways to keep people coming back month after month... at least, from a marketing perspective (from a practical one, if you don't need to use the software one month, no matter how much eye candy they throw at you, you still have no need for the software that month. But people love to buy into things they don't need, so Adobe still retains a certain degree of pull factor right there...).
    I see this as a great innovation on software development. However, there are some other impacts most people are not aware of...
    First, this will really help Adobe curb piracy. Copying and unlocking the software is one thing... hacking the license server or trying to hack an account is another. Things will get interesting for sure...
    Second, legally, this enables software companies to move towards the model they've been fighting for for quite a while now... a model where the user does NOT OWN the software (since a long time ago, most EULA's have already stated this, but nobody reads them, so nobody knows about it), but instead you RENT A LICENSE. This has been a long-standing issue, especially when it comes to reselling the software. Many companies have tried to prevent this (it's a big issue for games companies too), and they try to prevent people from reselling their software, and there are many legal details that make this quite complicated. However, Adobe won't have those issues any more. YOU HAVE NO SOFTWARE. You're renting access to a license. That's all.
    I'm not opposed to this model, but I know a lot of people will scream "foul" all over the interknots (most of them in a completely uninformed way too) when this is better understood.
    One thing is for sure... this model is here to stay, and will be adopted by many pretty soon. And if you ask me, Adobe is doing a darn good job at making it work. Rock on!
  • MandalorianMandalorian Website User Posts: 79
    I personally don't really like this idea.  Everything does seem to be going this route lately, and it bothers me.  I use some of Adobe's products off and on, mostly for personal projects, but sometimes freelance work as well.  Sure I could pay for a month, but I like to have software available whenever I need it, and not pay for a month if I only need it for a couple of days.
      Also, at my work, we use adobe products, but because of security issues, we don't let any of the computers that connect to the servers connect to the internet.  As a result, there's no way we'll be able to get Adobe's new software on those machines and be able to keep them verified.  That's a big problem.
      While I can see where Adobe is coming from with this (to a degree), I just see it being a hastle for end users.  Making sure it's available every month and not forgetting to make sure there's money in your account for Adobe's withdrawal come to mind first.
      I do plan to upgrade to CS6, but I'm now starting to look at other solutions to do my work.  Hitfilm might get another chance at last.
  • duffmanduffman Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 235 Enthusiast
    Long time Audition user, from the Cool Edit days. Dont really care about the other proggies being offered in the cloud. $20.00 a month is not a bad price. The problem comes with the required net connection.
    Like many home and pro studios, my studio/creation computer is not on the net. I'm not going to change this so I can use the latest version. There are too many other choices out there to be shoehorned into using Adobes cloud service. Sucks I'm going to loose all my scripting, custom shortcuts, and have to suffer through a new programs learning curve.
    Yep, they are going to create a wonderful revenue stream......BUT....
    What happens if/when you let your subscription lapse? You dont have anything on your computer open, or work with your project files!
     Today it is $19.95 to $49.95 a month.....How about 16 months from now?
    Sorry Adobe, I'm done.
    Duff
  • DarrenDarren Website User Posts: 164

    Isn't that like $80/month American??
     

    As a hobbyist, it is perhaps more affordable to pay monthly (but an annual commitment of £47 a month for those who haven't previously owned an Adobe product... well, £564 is quite a bit!).
  • RobinRobin Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 1,671 Enthusiast
    Isn't that like $80/month American??

    It would be, yes, but Adobe seems to have set all prices outside the US way higher than inside. In Germany the price also equals about $80 (61€), but even if I just switch the currency on the adobe website is goes down to $50... Don't know what they're thinking there.

  • SimonKJonesSimonKJones Moderator Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 4,450 Enthusiast
    Could be a tax thing?
  • RobinRobin Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 1,671 Enthusiast
    Oh right, yeah, in Germany we get +19% VAT on everything, forgot about that... -.-
  • bigglesbiggles Website User Posts: 1
    I have been an Adobe user for twenty years
    The subscription based system may be OK for new users, but for established users it is not.
    The USA pays one price everywhere else pays more even allowing for taxes
    Paying for the individual programs you actually want (Premiere, Encore, After Effects & Photoshop) would cost more than the lump subscription where you get all the programs you do not really need
    Now over the years Adobe has only upgraded Premiere in minor increments and such that you did not need to upgrade each version so if you model the costs on this basis the subscription becomes very expensive
    There is no guarantee that Adobe will not increase costs substantially and/or to actually continue with the upgrading at a significant worth while rate
    Once you end subscriptions your software soon becomes useless
    I am now here to learn about the software as I for one will not subscribe to use software
    As I use CS5.5 it does all I need as it is, the nice to have features that are in CS6 or with the CC version are just that nice to have 
    There has been a significant big in Premiere CS6 and 18 months later it is still there so what hope is there for the future?
     

  • SimonKJonesSimonKJones Moderator Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 4,450 Enthusiast
    One thing that needs to be done in this whole debate is to separate the general concept of subscription software from Adobe's specific implementation. I think the idea of subscription software (regular but small payments, frequent, regular updates to the software, regular feedback loop between devs and users) is a good one, even if Adobe's particular version has riled some people.
    Aharon Rabinowitz (who recently bigged up the HitFilm for Mac Kickstarter) posted a considered and well-researched blog post on the CC debate yesterday. Definitely worth a read.
  • DarrenDarren Website User Posts: 164
    Aharon Rabinowitz (who recently bigged up the HitFilm for Mac Kickstarter) posted a considered and well-researched blog post on the CC debate yesterday. Definitely worth a read.

    This is a very well written article indeed.

  • DanielGWoodDanielGWood Moderator Website User, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 1,021 Just Starting Out
    +1 for that link, good read. Explained the difference between wanting to own and wanting to have perpetual access to software rather well - the latter is a key point in the cloud software debate, whereas the former isn't the case with any software I've ever heard of.
  • erikalserikals Website User Posts: 13
    sooo...
    what do you think made me look into HitFilm...?!... smile.gif

    CC
  • MatthiasClaflinMatthiasClaflin Website User Posts: 674 Just Starting Out
    edited May 2013
    I'm personally going to jump on this Adobe bandwagon. My Sony Vegas has been acting up the last several months and I've been having trouble rendering to a usable mp4. Not to mention in the version I have, (Platinum 9) there is no h.264 encoding option which means that my videos are almost always rendered in wmv which I have grown to hate. That being said, the mov export options in my Vegas also seem to be corrupted somehow. On top of that I get constant crashes when trying to render. I recently updated my computer to 8GB RAM, six core AMD processor, and a Radeon 7850 graphics card. So I have re-installed it and had no luck in fixing any of these problems. 
    Given these various issues, I downloaded a demo version of Adobe's software suite on my computer and found that it not only ran flawlessly, but faster than my Vegas ever did. I never had professional level software from Sony so I can't comment on how it performed (however I had similar crashing issues with the Vegas Pro 12 demo).
    As far as the subscription issue so many people seem to have, the way I see it is that I spend roughly $600 for a bundle of software that cost about that individually. I get the latest version of the software immediately and I can work on my projects from anywhere with an internet connection. I no longer need my computer, just any computer with Adobe Premiere installed. That being said, I am essentially paying $600 a year for a suite of products that would cost thousands a year (assuming you upgrade every year). I call that a bargain. This also gives me good experience when looking for editing work, since most companies use either Premiere, Final Cut, or Avid.
    For me, paying monthly is actually rather affordable (since I work a full time job and live at home at the moment.) In the end, I just think this is a really good deal, because even if you only use 3 of the many choices of software, than you are still saving yourself $1200 every year (if you upgrade every year) and you would break even if you upgrade every 3 years. For me, this is a great opportunity to learn the software and use something a bit more professional. 
    Just my two cents.
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