Filmer 3D for Hitfilm owmycgi.net : Design and VFX.

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  • spydurhankspydurhank Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,776 Ambassador

    Yeah, 2.80.0 is way better, just needed some tweaking to make it HitFilm friendly. 

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 17,965 Ambassador

    Well, I'm gonna try playing for a little bit with some simple modelling. Laura and I recently watched the British Sci-Fi show "Primeval" and I've decided I want to build an "Anomaly" in Hitfilm. Particle sim will make short work of it, but I'll need to build some "shard" models. I actually created a couple shard models in an earlier version, but they were super terrible (looked ok in motion.). Some glassy shards will be a nice play with some simple extrusion modelling and some direct face tweaking. Shards can be subdivided and turned into rocks. And that gives some simple custom models for some particle tuts I want to do anyway.

  • WVgiantWVgiant Website User Posts: 17 Just Starting Out

    BMW render, no changes to file.

    Latest blender beta:

    CPU: 2:14.87, mem:144.77 peak:145.71

    GPU: 0:48.78, mem:142.07 peak:142.07

    Latest filmer:

    CPU:1:35.54, mem:144.77 peak:145.05

    GPU: 0:22.56, mem:142.04, peak 142.07

    Filmer is smoking the beta blender. Going to try some other benchmarks now and will report back later.

  • FlyingBanana78FlyingBanana78 Website User Posts: 411 Enthusiast

    Baseline nothing changed to file just hit F12 when file loaded

    https://imgur.com/8L9tX8Y

    Set to 16 sample and dithering selected

    https://imgur.com/oc9Yofe

    Set to 16 sample dithering and denoise added

    https://imgur.com/cKU6dFk

  • WVgiantWVgiant Website User Posts: 17 Just Starting Out
    edited February 2019

    Tried the BMW on my laptop.

    Specs:

    Core i7-5700HQ 2.7GHz

    32GB RAM (I think DDR3, relatively low clock speed)

    GTX970M 6GB card

    Result:

    with latest blender beta:

    GPU: 4:10.43, mem:142.07 peak:144.07

    CPU:8:53.66, mem:144.77 peak:145.04

    filmer:

    GPU: 2:25.03, mem:142.07 peak:142.08

    CPU won't work, it just keeps crashing. Maybe need to reboot and try again.

  • spydurhankspydurhank Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,776 Ambassador
    edited February 2019

    I ported our old Blender 2.79 tools panel to Blender 2.80.0 today. Calling it Hitfilm auto tools for now. It has all the old tools but I added an extra on/off toggle operation today called View "Normals", super handy. :)  

    I'm gonna have to distribute it as an addon because it is to touchy and takes too long waiting for a build to complete everytime I add or make a change to the 3D view panels directly in Blenders source code. 

    I think the custom Hitfilm OBJ, FBX and ALEMBIC exporters that need to be re-written for 2.8 can be included/bundled with Filmer though? I think? Really not sure but I'll try. 

    Oh and in the builing Blender course, we've just started learning how to add the new intel ai denoiser into our build which is super cool because that is what I wanted to do with the optix ai denoiser. Stoked.

    I'll do a video on our new panel later on. :) 

     

    EDIT:

    Had to learn another editor, Visual Studio Code. Good thing though, very helpful. :) 

  • tddavistddavis Moderator, Website User Posts: 4,015 Moderator

    @spydurhank Looks very complicated.  I will definitely need your instructional video to even begin to follow what that does :)  Blender isn't helping your Filmer Updates any with near daily build updates they are doing, are they? Ah, well, it'll all get there in the end.  Taking a Udemy on 2.8 right now, and got to say apart from a few neat little tricks I never knew about it's mostly old hat stuff, so the change over won't be too bad and I really like the new layouts.

  • spydurhankspydurhank Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,776 Ambassador

    @tddavis ,

    At first it was a little bit complicated writing in vscode but I'm okay with it now. :)

    I'm only doing builds every other three days so that I can keep up with the building Blender course and still be able to create 3D objects and texture them. I'm really exited to learn how to add other libraries to Blender and other tools but I'm an artist first and I must create. :)

    I could do a quick time-lapse video showing how these ops help speed up getting stuff over to Hitfilm but would be pointless till Hitfilm Pro 12 comes out in a few days. 

    I like the new layouts too, way less clutter. :) 

  • tddavistddavis Moderator, Website User Posts: 4,015 Moderator

    @spydurhank Oh, I forgot all about that!  Good call.  One less thing you'll have to go back and update. :)

  • GrayMotionGrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,333 Enthusiast

    "pointless till Hitfilm Pro 12 comes out"

    I have no plans to update to v12 this year so ... will Filmer and tools work 100% with v11.0 and down Frank? 

  • spydurhankspydurhank Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,776 Ambassador
  • spydurhankspydurhank Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,776 Ambassador

    Surprise. :)  4K-ish render at 9 render samples.

  • FlyingBanana78FlyingBanana78 Website User Posts: 411 Enthusiast

    Wow! I think even the most impatient person could wait a whole 22 seconds for a 4k render. Awesomesauce!

  • GrayMotionGrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,333 Enthusiast
    edited February 2019

    Yep. You're cooking with Purple Octane  (Sunoco racing fuel) here Frank!  Render times are insanely fast compared to 2.79b

    I rendered out a 250 frame 1080HD Ocean animation complete with hdr. , foam, environment mist and a bobbing camera. Scene: Verts 1,407,536, Tris 2,811,072. The setting I'm sharing below result in same high res/no noise image.

    2.79
    Samples 300  + AI Denoiser
    2:45 per frame Total time: 612.5

    2.80 Filmer Branch
    Samples 10 + AI Denoiser
    0:15 per frame Total time 37.5

    Peak memory 4218.5


    I did notice that Filmer branch hits the Nvidia a little harder than 2.79/2.8 beta. My fans rarely run on my card but the Filmer build brings them up to 5%. Trying to run a little warmer at 54c - which is actually a good thing because that results in the boost clock jumping to 1911 from 1506 on the GPU. Gotta love the 10x series for that 

  • spydurhankspydurhank Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,776 Ambassador

    @FlyingBanana78 ,

    You guys will get this in the next update, should be asap really but there was an update a few days ago with major changes to Cycles that broke everything so it took me a few days to reintegrate my code, finally got it all done today. :)

    Now just need to complete a video on how to use the Hitfilm export auto ops panel. We're gonna export an entire animated Blender scene along with a handful of Blender passes over to Hitfilm. We're gonna rig a 3D object then animate it. Then we'll export the scene with a few clicks. :)

    Once in Hitfilm and the Blender scene is loaded, we'll make sure the scene is synced up in both programs and we'll create a few simple custom Hitfilm passes to comp together with the Blender passes. Blender will provide raytraced shadow and reflection passes. Everything else including materials and some techniques to actually re-texture the 3D mesh live, will be done while inside the Hitfilm timeline.   

    This time, for simplicity we're using Blender empties as the animation source for simple animation groups. We'll do a more complex animation with an Alembic file in the next video with a few more material hack tips.

    I'll tell you guys a funny story that happened to me not too long ago but maybe some other time because I'm about to go to sleep but for now, this is really funny to me, watch out for at least one but the way things are going, maybe more copycat type dudes. It is really silly but also very funny. It is so funny that not a single person would be upset... well... maybe except for the copycats. These guys get a giggle out of me.  :)                                       

  • spydurhankspydurhank Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,776 Ambassador
    edited February 2019

    @GrayMotion ,

    Wow dude, awesome render times. :)

    You're gonna love the next build. :)

     

    EDIT:

    Oh and if any of you guys want to take what you learn from me over to your audience, please let me know and I'll see about getting you one of my 3D models with 16bit 8K textures for free. That way you won't have to use a game engine model with 8bit jpegs or 8bit pngs which do not work at all with my techniques. You can't create the same high quality masks and custom Hitfilm render passes that I do at 16bits and for sure, you can't grade or color correct in 8bits the way you can at 16bits. So please don't destroy my techniques with your 8bit shenanigans. If you've got a certain tut in mind and you need a specific 3D asset, let me know and I can build it for you in less than a handful of days. I'm faster than the speed of Farts in the darkest of nights. :)   

  • spydurhankspydurhank Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,776 Ambassador

    Another video, sorry it runs a little long and the audio skips for about 15 seconds during the first half.

    I suggest a fly by animation for the next video tut but am open to suggestions. I show progress on latest Filmer build and Tools Panel for Hitfilm exports. 

    I then do a straight up 8bits vs 16bit float linear color and above. Astounding comparisons.

  • FlyingBanana78FlyingBanana78 Website User Posts: 411 Enthusiast

    That is looking sweet! Really digging the rendering speedup. I created this on my laptop and it took an hour to render out 500 samples.  Then took it to the desktop with the latest filmer and got these results with cpu, gpu. Sorry I didn't stamp the render image. But night and day difference in render time. I am sure I could optimize the scene and settings to get more out of it but just figured I would post the unaltered results. 

    CPU

    https://i.imgur.com/IBbtF7l.png

     

    GPU

    https://i.imgur.com/1LPI5fB.png

    the textures are 24bit depth png's

    Here is a non screenshot image.

    https://i.imgur.com/B69Wb48.png

  • spydurhankspydurhank Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,776 Ambassador

    @FlyingBanana78 ,

    Wow! Those render times are crazy.

    In a Raytracing engine, I think the texture bit depth doesn't matter too much until you attempt to color correct and/or grade the image. 

    Is that 24bits per channel making it a total of 96bits or

    is that 6bits per channel making it a total of 24bits? 

  • FlyingBanana78FlyingBanana78 Website User Posts: 411 Enthusiast

    @spydurhank I am going to show my lack of knowledge here and just say that when I right click and view properties/details of the png it shows the bit info as 24bit. So I am just going to guess here and say that it is probably going to be the latter of your answers and be 6 per chan. 

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 17,965 Ambassador

    @FlyingBanana78 @spydurhank nope. "24-bit" is most likely three channels (RGB) at 8-bits/channel. 

    6 bits/channel would only allow for 64 R, G, or B levels from black to white. I can't think of anything, ever, that used 6 bits/channel. 

    Never seen anything use 24 bits/channel either. It's always 8, 16, or 32 (we're talking software/editors. Plenty of cameras shoot 10, 12 or 14 bits/channel).

    It does get confusing because the originally defined (and precise) terminology has been muddied over the years, often by marketing fools. As a different example download/upload internet speeds and video compression are given in megaBITS. Except nobody uses bits to measure large files. But, in the 90's megabits became a popular measure because it multiplied megaBYTES by 8. Creating a bigger number. Marketing. 

    And, if you buy a "256 GB" SSD you'll find its really closer to 230 GB. Why? In small print on the back you'll find text that says "1GB=1 billion bytes." Um, nope! Computers work in binary - powers of 2 - and a "Gigabyte" is 1024*1024*1024 bytes. 1,073,741,824 bytes. 1 billion bytes ain't a "Gigabyte" no matter what storage maker's marketing says.

    But, I digress. 24-bit almost always means "three 8-bit channels." 32-bit is tricky as it could refer to something like a PNG with alpha (RGBA channels), or, a 32-bit/channel image like an EXR. Most of the time, bit depth is used to describe channels. Using "24-bit" to describe a full 8-bit/channel image comes from - wait for it - monitor maker's marketing departments. I think Apple. 8-bits/channel gives 256 levels of black to white. 256*256*256=16,777,216 colors. Science currently considers most humans able to resolve around 10 million colors, so, in theory, 16.7 million colors is enough - and, for final output it really is! High bit depths (16-bit linear color has 65,536 levels from black/white) do NOT actually increase the perceived visual quality of an image. It just gives the computer more color values to allow for more aggressive grading. Unless you have a very expensive HDR monitor (which is 10 bits/channel), any "16-bit/channel" or "32-bit/channel" image is downsampled to 8-bits/channel before you see it. So "24-bit image" for 8-bit/channel RGB comes from monitor makers saying a display was "24-bit True-Color" (because 16.7 million colors is more than most people can see) as a marketing tool. It simply meant that the full range of 16.7 million colors could be viewed at once at a time when digital images used a total of 256 (GIF) or 65,536 colors of 16.7 million with stored pallette data defining which colors were used.

    BTW, Frank, I would disagree with you that an 8-bit/channel image automatically means one's render will look terrible. Let's put it this way. A 16-bit channel image has 65,536 channel levels. Unless you're making a 65,536 pixel wide image with a grayscale gradient across the entire thing no one comes close to using all those colors. You might note even programs with 16 or 32-bit/channel rendering still uses an 8-bit/channel color picker. Digital artists don't actually have direct access to the "extra" colors, and they only come into play for gradients, alpha and transparency before your GPU downsamples to 8-bit for display. I argue the real issue with "video game models" is low-res textures. I'd bet good money if I gave you a well painted, but 8-bit/channel texture at 16k in a non-lossy format (PNG/TIFF) it would work fine with your techniques because the real "16-bitness"is from the interaction with lights and glows and shadows, not the texture map.

    Emmy winning CG artist Mojo Lebowitz recently shared this:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LMGN9r8z0LB_R8t3Fiw4dvPYe9fzDEaV/view?fbclid=IwAR1s9ld1qndjjrxfjzDb1jTNzkdjs95DAe_QbcDtl0_Ez4j8TIdntK6_v1o

    This is a 4k render of an Enterprise-D model created for Star Trek: Voyager in the 1990's. The model is under 100,000 polys and uses 2k, 8-bit/channel textures. Now, by 2019 standards, it's not quite perfect. Pixel peeping will show (for example) zero window geometry - it's all texture. That said, this render looks a lot better than most low-poly models using 8-bit/channel textures? Why? Because they are damn good textures, painted with lots of detail and not based off a single shade of gray. But, have one of the best artists on the planet slap in two lights (I asked Mojo), render it in Lightwave at 16-bits/channel before converting to PNG for sharing, and you get a damn good image!

    Because that artist has mastered his tools. 

    BTW, all Hitfilm users owe Mojo many debts of gratitude. The first Lightwrap plug-in was designed by Lightwave to Mojo's specifications, and was first used by Mojo on Babylon 5. Ron Thornton, Mojo and the rest of the artists at Foundation Imaging basically invented many of the techniques and workflows in use today. You BSG fans? Mojo was lead animator, and reboot Vipers have RCS thrusters because Mojo added them - he was ripping off his own techniques for Babylon 5 Starfuries! 

    Ok, I'll shut up now. 

  • NormanPCNNormanPCN Website User Posts: 3,853 Enthusiast

    "A 16-bit channel image has 65,536 channel levels."

    Bits of mumbo jumbo. Depends on what 16-bit you are talking about. 16-float has a 10-bit mantissa. 16-bit float also has 30 stops of dynamic range. A stupid large dynamic range. It has 1024 levels per stop of range. A 32-bit float has a 23 bit mantissa.

    A 16-bit integer is often signed (aka like Photoshop) so it is more like +- 15 bits. At best a 16-bit integer has 16 stops dynamic range. With integer, each stop is asymmetric in the number of levels supported. If linear interpretation then extremely asymmetric.

    I think the 16-bit float is an excellent option. Enough extra levels over 8-bit and way more than enough stops of range and half the memory consumption. Compute speed is the same as 32-bit since GPUs do not support 16-bit floats internally (excluding recent Teslas). 16-bit floats exist as memory operands that get converted to/from 32-bit floats internally (GPU registers).

     

  • Triem23Triem23 Moderator Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 17,965 Ambassador

    @NormanPCN I knew you'd come along and discuss more thoroughly (and correctly) 16-bit numbers. Although I could have sworn I'd typed "linear" in there (also thought I'd said "16-bit word.")

    And none of that changes my disagreement with Frank on the premise that 8-bit/channel textures automatically ruin your image or automatically ruin image passes. 

  • NormanPCNNormanPCN Website User Posts: 3,853 Enthusiast
    edited February 2019

    Agreed. 8-bit works pretty well when done well.

     

  • spydurhankspydurhank Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,776 Ambassador
    edited February 2019

    Mike you're funny dude, seriously funny. I have no opinion on your disagreement other than it is cute because your math can't fool my eyes.  :)

    "I'd bet good money if I gave you a well painted, but 8-bit/channel texture at 16k in a non-lossy format (PNG/TIFF) it would work fine with your techniques" 

    Sounds like a challenge, I can 3D texture paint at 32,768 x 32,768 down to 16,384 x 16,384 at 16bits which I then scale down to 8192 x 8192.

    I bet I win. :)

     

    EDIT: Forgot to post this, whoops. Made a 3D Hitfilm Logo as part of an upcoming promo. 

  • spydurhankspydurhank Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,776 Ambassador

    Quick render at low samples. :)

  • GrayMotionGrayMotion Website User Posts: 1,333 Enthusiast
  • tddavistddavis Moderator, Website User Posts: 4,015 Moderator

    @spydurhank The light prismatics are absolutely stunning, Frank.  Great job!

  • spydurhankspydurhank Moderator, Website User, Ambassador, Imerge Beta Tester, HitFilm Beta Tester Posts: 2,776 Ambassador

    @GrayMotion and @tddavis Thanks guys. :)

    @Triem23 Sorry, only skimmed through your last post and just read the rest and took a look at those pics that you linked. Pretty cool stuff, I really like the Enterprise. Not too bad for an old 1990s tv show, that was made with the only tech available to them at the time which produced final images at 8bits.

    All morning I thought about telling you when I originally got into 2D art so that you would know that I am sincere and truthful when I give you my knowledge concerning anything having to do with 3D and visual effects because 2D art is really the same as 3D art on a 2D monitor, but only my mom and pre-school teachers can prove it. So believe this or not but put simply, I've been drawing since I was 3 years old in 3D perspective with lighting and shadows with pencils and any type of brush and paint you can think of. Somewhere between being 3 years old and age 16, I learned fear, so when an opportunity came in the form of a full ride to the Ringling School of Art here in Florida, I was afraid so I didn't go. Now I'm 46 and it's like that little 3 year old kid that we all have inside of us gets another go at focusing on this whole art thing. No sobs... happy. :)         

    I'll just leave this link on texture formatting advice from the Pros. Notice the "use exr when possible" suggestion on the page. Not stated in the link but I know from personal experience that 16bit float images have a smaller file size than their 8bit counterparts.  https://3delight.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/3DFM/pages/27557904/Texturing+and+Formats                         

    The pics below are from my second to last video. Same project but the only difference is that I switched between 8bit and 16bit float "project settings in Hitfilm Pro". There is one light and one environment map. The 3D Prime object has 8k 16bit float textures and you can see what 8bit project settings alone will do to those 3D textures. It is not a far leap to guess what will happen if I were to have used 8bit textures instead of 16bit float textures. There is literally no comparison between the two. The 16bit float version beats the 8bit version like a Jet Fighter beats a Vespa. :)  

    at 8bits: You have to do at least twice the work if you know what you're doing and it takes even more time if you don't know what you're doing, to make it look passably mediocre compared to the 16bit float version. Causes lots of frustration with lights and materials... don't lie. :)

    same image at 16bit float: No frustration... nothing to do with your frustration free time but to have fun tweaking materials and adding effects. All too easy when you pick the correct tool/format which is easily at everyone's disposal, right from the inception of the 3D object. 16bit textures. :) 

       

  • FlyingBanana78FlyingBanana78 Website User Posts: 411 Enthusiast

    I too had the chance at going to Ringling as well, but my grades and such weren't up to par so I would have had to pay my way in. I instead ended up at Tampa Tech for commercial art and video prod. Looking back I'm sure I would have been happier going in debt at a renowned college like Ringling and possibly getting placed in studio work upon graduation, instead of becoming a mechanic. Only a few years ago I started getting my artistic mojo back after an ex trashed my portfolio works.

     

    I do agree as well that higher bit images all around do result in easier and cleaner results. Just in the monetary solution that I am in I am kind of stuck in the lower "freebies" which are almost if not always intended for game engines. And that HF logo is sweet! Could see a parody promo coming out of that. Queue the Indiana Jones music.... " Simon Jones and The Crystal Logo "

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