Intel CEO on the Evolution of PCs. Are you interested in a Complet?

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  • MichaelJames
    MichaelJames Posts: 2,034 Enthusiast
    Complet refers to computers in a tablet form.  You can think its stupid but so what?  Yes tablets are computers... so are laptops.. ultrabooks... netbooks and notebooks.  Remember Retina displays?  All fake marketing terms that were developed to push units or describe specific patented version of something. 

    Twerking is only a pathetic word for those whole never know the joys.
  • Triem23
    Triem23 Posts: 20,521 Ambassador
    Lol---yeah, I remember "Retina" displays. And "Airport," and, of course, "Facetime."
    Boy, Apple loves to give a different name to something old to pretend it's new. ;-)
    Also, I must remember to never underestimate the ability of people to fall for hype--Like, say, killing Brian on Family Guy during sweeps week. He'll be back in a month, but it didn't stop the internet from going ape-poo over it. ;-)
    How DOES that 8" tablet of yours run Hitfilm? Decent speed, or total lag? I don't think I'd really want to edit on a tablet, but I can see myself prepping particle sims or individual composite shots for integration into a larger project on my main machine. If it's a window tablet, I assume you have the option of using a bluetooth or USB keyboard/mouse as well. Maybe one of those cheap silicon membrane things.
  • Klut
    Klut Posts: 6
    edited December 2013
    I'm confused. Is complet an actual growing term?
  • MichaelJames
    MichaelJames Posts: 2,034 Enthusiast
    Well its the first hitfilm ultimate version and the particle effect seemed to be fine.  Its running off a new Intel Atom quad core processor with of course a integrated graphics card.  I wouldn't do this for very intensive edits and renders but it played a particle effect where I picked a different texture and edited the alpha and the color just fine and rendered it.  Not as fast as my computer of course but I would easily see myself building a look or very simple stuff with this.  When I get a blue tooth keyboard and mouse or stylus for this i'll put it through its paces.
  • MichaelJames
    MichaelJames Posts: 2,034 Enthusiast
    I got my hands on a Dell XPS 18 all in one for a little while.  Man that would be sweet.  I am looking into future purchases right now and I see the XPS one 27... a 27" quad hd touch screen, 4th gen i7 which sounds great but is being held back by a GT 750M.  just give me a full gtx 700 m series card and I would instantly buy one of these.
  • MichaelJames
    MichaelJames Posts: 2,034 Enthusiast
    The Lenovo Horizon 2 was on display at CES.  This is going to be a additional purchase for me.  This year i plan on going to a full workstation... getting a surface pro 2... and then this.  Come on hitfilm... perfect time to unveil a touch mode.  An i7 and a Geforce 840m will make this something that is a viable option for hitfilm.  Not the fastest option but still something fun to use in a living room.
    http://reviews.cnet.com/desktops/lenovo-horizon-ii/4505-3118_7-35833731.html
  • I don't know, nothing I have seen there out does my desktop computer.  It isn't the newest tech but it handles everything I can throw at it.   I miss my dual monitors when working on tablet or laptop away from home.  One thing I am noticing is that the screens on devices are getting bigger and not smaller.
  • Triem23
    Triem23 Posts: 20,521 Ambassador
    Well, at MichaelJames noted, a "complet" (SUCH a stupid name) isn't going to replace a desktop--or even a laptop. Much of this is simply due to the engineering requirements of trying to cram the electronics previously contained inside a 3-cubic-foot box (with enternal monitor) into something really, really thin.
    I don't think MichaelJames was hoping or intending to replace his main workstation, just dreaming about being able to do simplified work on a portable system for later transfer to his workstation to finish.
    Yeah, screens are getting larger--no surprise there. Give it a year, and Apple will make an iPad 12",just as soon as they can figure out how to patent a screen size.
  • I get that, it is just all these new tech devices the best thing they can show you is that one game that you can play on it.  They never actually show anything that would constitute a normal user actually using it for work.
    I like the look of Microsoft's Surface and would prefer that over my samsung 10.1 tablet but nothing I have seen so far is a replacement or main work device replacement for my desktop.  The closest thing I ever came to that was running a virtual connection via my laptop with my desktop computer, it had some draw backs but is the closest I have ever come to having something actually usable.
    I think most of these all in one touch screen devices are more for graphic artists than real world work situations.
    I am constantly back and forth between video editing, photoshop, fireworks, audition and/or sony soundforge,hitfilm2, email, text editor and various other software especially browsers.   Flash video doesn't play very well in tablet versions of browsers so you need a "real" operating system like windows 7 / 8.  I am not an apple / mac person and everything I do is on windows but compared to these android devices windows is so much easier to actually do things in.  Touch screens are ok, but they have their draw backs.  
    Ever try Leap Motion's touchless interface where you use your hands to manuever around, that is more of a better experience than touch screens and the companies that went only touch screen had to back track and integrate a physical keyboard because people complained about the experience of their touch only devices.
    I use my tablet for reading news, ebook reader and surfing the net and games.  Nothing else, it absolutely sucks as a work device and most of these devices I am seeing coming out are just one big touch tablet of one kind or another.  Blah.
  • MichaelJames
    MichaelJames Posts: 2,034 Enthusiast
    Its not to replace the raw power that some of us have... but there are a lot of users who aren't on the most powerful computers.  It would be nice to have a touch skin that allows hitfilm to work easier with touch screens.  These complets are proliferating right along side normal tablets.  That new Lenovo would not be as fast as my desktop, but it would be immensely more portable.  On my dell venue pro 8 I can use the original hitfilm... its not fast and its clearly not optimized but it would allow me to do some minor things in hitfilm while on a trip.  The basic consumer may invest in a Complet instead of a traditional mid tier spec machine.
  • I want one of these systems that you can actually use for everything one would want to do. I don't understand why they can't make the tech that matches or exceeds the power of current day mid to high teir desktops.  It just doesn't make sense to me.   Clearly the technology exists to do this, why do the tech manufacturers spend their time on making toys?   It doesn't make much sense unless they are just testing what they can do and say here we made this cool thing and they stick a price tag on it to pay for the development.  Blah.
  • MichaelJames
    MichaelJames Posts: 2,034 Enthusiast
    They can, but do you want a 5k very expensive complet or tablet that has the same specs as a mid or high tier desktop but lasts 2 hours?
  • Triem23
    Triem23 Posts: 20,521 Ambassador
    As I noted above, taking the components from a 3 cubic foot tower and cramming them into a 0.05 cubic foot tablet is a huge engineering feat. The internal power transformer of a tower alone doesn't fit in a tablet.
    This, alone is enough to create tiers of computing power, and explain the relative expense of tablets and complets compared to towers.
    Certainly, we could, in theory, make everything the power of a mid-high level workstation, but most people don't need anything like that level of power. For the majority of users who use computers and such to browse the web and social media, view a video and write an email, they don't need the power of a top tier machine. Certainly they don't want to pay for that power.
    It's not a question of the tech companies "making toys" for us to "pay for development," but part of the standard tech cycle. New tech comes out and is very expensive-to-power-ratio for a few generations, then becomes cheaper as it matures.
    Consider the smartphone in my hand: three years ago, all smartphones had single-core chips, most clocked at under a gig. 2014 will see the year where flagship phones will start using 8-core processors, clocked at 1.5 GHz or higher--the math calls this a 12-fold increase in computing power for an end product that will be at about the same price as the three year old tech. That's amazing!
    Oh, yes, and THIS smartphone, a Samsung Galaxy III, contains significantly more processing power than machines I cut features on ten years ago. There is absolutely no reason why a tablet can't run a fully-featured NLE at an equivalent of, say Avid 3, Final Cut 7 or Premiere 7 or Vegas 7 (the last 32-bit revisions of those editors). Will it run as quickly as today's software on a high-end machine? Of course not. Could you do good work with it? Yup.
  • I don't agree.  Advancements in mobile tech, small factor hard disks, SSD hybrids, cpu's, battery and power sources.  I say that it is possible with today's tech, 2013 / 2014 to create a mobile device like what is shown at CES and on the market now to do it.   The price wouldn't be 5k, probably 1.2k or so.  They are just all caught up in Microsoft's coat tails with windows 8 and how things have been done over the last 4 or 5 years.
    I don't wan't a phone operating system but that is what you have been seeing when they went from mobile phones to tablets,  laptops are now being turned into hybrid tablets.  They all are just falling over themselves copying each other because that is what they have been accustomed to what people want.  They created the market and are now totally bought into their own hype as to this is what the future is about because microsoft says so.
    Anyway, I do think that the tech is here now to do it.  That's what I am saying.  Don't get caught into thinking of desktop tech form factors, there have been huge advancements in mobile that meet or exceed the power of desktops.   If they wanted to sell their devices inexpensively they could, many of the sources that manufacture the tech for companies own all the parts from raw material to final product, can take raw silicon and make all the parts on site.   Just saying it is possible.   
  • Triem23
    Triem23 Posts: 20,521 Ambassador
    I'm trying to figure out how the industry is riding Microsoft's coat tails, when Microsoft is busy playing catch-up to everyone else. I mean, it WAS Apple who brought the first successful tablet to market. Samsung followed, and a whole bunch of other vendors had andriod tablets out on the market before the Surface was a twinkle in Balmer's eye. Yeah, Windows 8 is a mobile-ish system, but, again, that's Microsoft trying to be more like Apple and Android, not the other way around.
    SSD's bring up an interesting point. See, when you're working with full HD (1080p) video and a fast codec at 10-bit, suddenly you're pumping out 480 GB in an hour--less, actually, since the 480 GB SSD carts in the Blackmagic deck we use for master recording at the TV station I work for hold 55 minutes of video (And before you point at AVCHD and h.264--those are 4:2:0, long GOP compressed codecs intended for delivery to consumers--these are NOT "professional" formats.).
    That $480 GB SSD drive cost $400 in October, 2013 (I see 480 GB SSD's have ropped to about $380 as of now.).
    Now, I can go get myself a fast, 2 TB hard drive for about $150 right now. Cost-per-megabyte of SSD is still about 10-12 times that of an SSD. at 2013 prices, the 2 TB of storage on the laptop I am typing this on alone brings the price of your "high-end" machine to over $1200--and we haven't added in the CPU, GPU, RAM, OS, monitor, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc, yet.
    CPU power: The chip manufacturers don't really get much chance to take advantage of the economics of improved workflow--two years ago every CPU was built to a 40nm scale. These days they're building to 32nm scale, and working on a 27nm scale. This 27nm scale is a complete refit of all the manufacturing machines, since the previous gear isn't capable of working to that small a scale. Chip makers are basically rebuilding entire factories every three years or so. This would explain why the median cost of newly introduced CPUs/GPUs stays about the same--they can't come down because the factory isn't in operation with a process long enough to really optimise, streamline and cheapen the process... Let's look at the PS3 for a moment... when that thing launched, is cost $599 for a machine that cost Sony over $1000 to make and distribute. as of June 2013 it cost Sony $320 to make a PS3 that they sold for $299. How did the manufacturing cost come down so much? Because the PS3 has had a seven-year lifespan and Sony's been able to go back and improve and streamline the process--plus, the initial investment in the factory assembly gear has been paid off.
    Intel doesn't get to do that. because they went from two years of making 40nm chips to two years of 32nm chips and are getting ready for 27nm. Again, time to rebuild the factory!
    Incidentally, there's a reason why, with PS4 Sony changed it's design, and shifted from a custom chipset to using stock off-the-shelf tech. To not lose money on every console sold. PS4 costs Sony about $400 to make, which they sell for $500.
    Battery power... If you look at the Android world (I can't speak for iPad, as I've not done that research), the droids all have power management software built-in--they scale back power to the CPU when the machine is in an idle mode and increase power when the CPU demands it--this is why a GSIII can go all day with no issues if I just make a few phone calls, send a few emails and browse the Hitfilm forums, and why this same phone uses half it's power in an hour if I'm playing Angry Birds. And doing the kind of video work that users of this forum obviously do is high-power, high-resource consumption. Likely we're looking at very poor battery life if one is doing video edits and renders on a tablet machine... Oh, yes, you could tether to a power cord, but isn't a large part of the popularity of tablets the portable form factor?
    Tell me, btw, what tech news have I missed? What mobile product exceeds the power of a 12-core Xeon? Because an i7 isn't considered a high-end chip. That's the low-mid chip for consumers, not professionals. What mobile GPU exceeds the power of the nVidia Quadro? Again, the Quadro is a $5000 professional graphics card. Something like an nvidia 780 is a mid-spec consumer card. How can a 5-10" tablet exceed the display power of a desktop running two 24" monitors at 1920x1080 (or higher) resolution?
    See, the reason low-end laptops are turning into tablets is that the public really really wants something cheap and portable--they don't care about power because its' not really needed. The overall PC market dropped in sales in 2013, but the biggest drop was the traditional laptop--which is giving way to tablets and hybrids. The sales of DESKTOP towers actually increased by 13% in 2013. High-end users (coders, multimedia folks and science folks) still need the additional horsepower of a desktop workstation.
    Attempting to make absolutely every device a "high-end PC" for $1200 is a stupid, stupid idea for several reasons. besides being impractical, there's the issue of consumer choice. As I've said several times, different users need different machines. My Dad buys a new laptop, he's looking at a $300 machine to browse the web, pay his bills and do Turbo Tax. I buy a laptop, and I'm spending $3000 on the biggest, beefiest, most powerful thing I can get, because I do video and have to travel out of town three or four times a year to produce and edit programs on-site. I NEED a high-end machine. My dad doesn't. Dad could actually still do what he does on a 12 year old Pentium III. My fiancee is in the middle--she needs something powerful enough to run Guild Wars smoothly, but she doesn't need the raw power I do. Her last machine was $1500.
    Finally, one last side note. Yup, flash doesn't work well on tablets--that's the result of the Apple/Adobe fight. Apple decided that they would refuse to implement any flash support on iProduct, so Adobe halted mobile flash development two years ago--see, at that point the large media websites said they were all shifting from flash to html 5. They didn't. Oops. I guess that's what happens when Adobe caves in to Apple bs (Although Adobe not bothering to write magicmouse support into photoshop, premiere and after effects is a funny counter-ploy... Too bad that only hurts the end-user.
  • SimonKJones
    SimonKJones Posts: 4,448 Enthusiast
    I actually prefer smaller tablets. A 7" properly serves a different purpose to a computer, whereas larger tablets occupy an awkward space where they're not quite proper computers but they're also not usefully portable. Whereas my 7" Nexus is a superb device for general reading and writing, when I can't get on my computer.
    The main fantasy-tech solution to all of this is to have scalable, telescoping screens. So you can have a device that is the size of a smartphone, and then you take opposite corners and can simply stretch it out to tablet size, or monitor size, and back again.
  • Triem23
    Triem23 Posts: 20,521 Ambassador
    Give it about five to ten years for that---once all those flexible displays in prototype get mature enough to go into common use.
  • Triem23 have you seen the new SSD hybrid laptop drives?  120GB SSD paired to a 1TB hard disk.
    Something like that maybe solve your problem?